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Alternative Rules Forum

 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:45 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
An optional rule I've had in my head for years involves fire arcs for Titans. Just looking at Warlords, Reavers, Phantoms and Warlocks, you would think that the arm weapons would have the capability of swiveling around to fire behind the Titan. That being said, I propose an optional rule: arm weapons for Warlords, Reaver, Phantom and Warlock Titans have a 270 degree fire arc, basically combining forward fire arc with swivel left or right. Perhaps in fairness for Orks, this could be extended to Great and Slasher Gargants.

Thoughts?


Hi!

I've been thinking about this. I agree with the 270, but how do you measure the extra 90 degrees (45 on either side) during play? An AT style template?

In the case of gargants they were suppose to be able to fire straight back! So their fire arc is 180 bisecting the model. This means you have to stay on a gargants flank so the other sides weapons can't target you. Being in front or behind is actually disadvantageous against a gargant.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:51 am 
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primarch wrote:
Dwarf Supreme wrote:
An optional rule I've had in my head for years involves fire arcs for Titans. Just looking at Warlords, Reavers, Phantoms and Warlocks, you would think that the arm weapons would have the capability of swiveling around to fire behind the Titan. That being said, I propose an optional rule: arm weapons for Warlords, Reaver, Phantom and Warlock Titans have a 270 degree fire arc, basically combining forward fire arc with swivel left or right. Perhaps in fairness for Orks, this could be extended to Great and Slasher Gargants.

Thoughts?


Hi!

I've been thinking about this. I agree with the 270, but how do you measure the extra 90 degrees (45 on either side) during play? An AT style template?

In the case of gargants they were suppose to be able to fire straight back! So their fire arc is 180 bisecting the model. This means you have to stay on a gargants flank so the other sides weapons can't target you. Being in front or behind is actually disadvantageous against a gargant.

Primarch

Technically warlord weapon were supposed to be a

I was thinking overlapping the front 180 with the side 180, allowing a Titan to fire straight back like a Gargant.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:41 am 
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Quote:
I was thinking overlapping the front 180 with the side 180, allowing a Titan to fire straight back like a Gargant.


Hi!

I was think more of a 90 degree blindspot in the rear, but none for the gargant with the shortcoming that weapons on each side only had and arc of fire for that side.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:17 am 
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primarch wrote:
Quote:
I was thinking overlapping the front 180 with the side 180, allowing a Titan to fire straight back like a Gargant.


Hi!

I was think more of a 90 degree blindspot in the rear, but none for the gargant with the shortcoming that weapons on each side only had and arc of fire for that side.

Primarch

I'd be okay with that. You'd could figure out that blind spot the same way you figure out rear armor facing.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:29 am 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
Quote:
I was thinking overlapping the front 180 with the side 180, allowing a Titan to fire straight back like a Gargant.


Hi!

I was think more of a 90 degree blindspot in the rear, but none for the gargant with the shortcoming that weapons on each side only had and arc of fire for that side.

Primarch

I'd be okay with that. You'd could figure out that blind spot the same way you figure out rear armor facing.


Hi!

Bingo! That's the ticket!. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:07 am 
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So instead of a 270 arc, the current idea is for a 225 arc for each arm weapon? [Front 180 plus 45 to that weapon's side.] That could work.

Possibly more realistic, at least for the less agile Titans (Imperial and Chaos), would be a 180 arc that includes the front and side (that the weapon is on) armor arcs. I can see Eldar Titans being agile enough to fire the right-arm weapon directly to the left, but most Imperial based Titans would have to fire through their own body to do so. Thus:
Eldar get 225 degree arcs for each arm weapon.
Imperial/Chaos get 180 front & side armor arcs for arm arc.
Ork get 180 side arc, from directly in front to directly behind.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:14 am 
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Magnus's method is makes the most sense from a logic point of view. I know looking at a warlord, my first thoughts were that it should be firing in the 90 degree front and 90'degree side arcs for a total of 180.

My only concern is the complexity. You start adding variant firing arcs you need to make it very clear what they are and very easy to calculate.

It is also a bit of a slippery slope. If titans have various firing arcs, what about praetorians? Super heavies? Vehicles?

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:18 am 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
My only concern is the complexity. You start adding variant firing arcs you need to make it very clear what they are and very easy to calculate.

It is also a bit of a slippery slope. If titans have various firing arcs, what about praetorians? Super heavies? Vehicles?


I agree with this completely. Reading the proposals here is bringing back nightmares of 1st edition Epic where I remember a lot of arguments about what was and wasn't in fire arcs. Land Raiders were a particularly egregious example, because the lascannon were side mounted and had a 180 degree fire arc on either side, the Marine player would desperately be trying to line up Land Raiders so they faced directly face on to enemy units (so the lascannon on both sides could fire at the same target). This slowed the game down a lot with all the fidgeting about with the minis trying to place them perfectly and caused a lot of tension between players.

While I agree that 2nd edition Epic threw realism out the window, I have no desire to return to those dark days where weapons were anything other than front 180 degree or 360 degree firing... Sorry chaps, it's just how I feel about it!

But I know this is a proposed Optional Rule, so fill your boots! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Oh, when I say "Imperial based Titans" I am referring to the actual SM2 era "beetle back" Titans, not the newer Warlord that looks like a walking fortress or the Warhound that just looks... ugh. I'm really not familiar with those models, so someone who is would have to weigh in.

I agree, it would add a level of complexity. Then again, Titans already have a couple of levels of complexity above any other unit type, so there would be no need to add alternate fire arcs to other unit types. It shouldn't be too difficult to indicate fire arcs on the Datacard for each class of Titan. Titans are already getting a lot of (optional) complexity added with the Experience and the Plasma Generation rules. One more option shouldn't be that big of a deal. As with all options, all players have to agree to their use, so that shouldn't be an issue.

No need to be sorry for having an opinion. However, what has been said so far for Ork Gargants are not proposals. Their fire arcs (for arm weapons) currently ARE 180 to each side, directly to the front to directly behind.

Of course, now that I've typed that, I realize that I'm taking it as true from reading that here. [Takes a moment and looks through Ork PDF.] Actually, I cannot find where in the Ork PDF it lists fire arcs for any Gargant other than the Mega. Would someone please be so kind as to specify where that info is?

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:21 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Oh, when I say "Imperial based Titans" I am referring to the actual SM2 era "beetle back" Titans, not the newer Warlord that looks like a walking fortress or the Warhound that just looks... ugh. I'm really not familiar with those models, so someone who is would have to weigh in.

I agree, it would add a level of complexity. Then again, Titans already have a couple of levels of complexity above any other unit type, so there would be no need to add alternate fire arcs to other unit types. It shouldn't be too difficult to indicate fire arcs on the Datacard for each class of Titan. Titans are already getting a lot of (optional) complexity added with the Experience and the Plasma Generation rules. One more option shouldn't be that big of a deal. As with all options, all players have to agree to their use, so that shouldn't be an issue.

No need to be sorry for having an opinion. However, what has been said so far for Ork Gargants are not proposals. Their fire arcs (for arm weapons) currently ARE 180 to each side, directly to the front to directly behind.

Of course, now that I've typed that, I realize that I'm taking it as true from reading that here. [Takes a moment and looks through Ork PDF.] Actually, I cannot find where in the Ork PDF it lists fire arcs for any Gargant other than the Mega. Would someone please be so kind as to specify where that info is?


Hi!

Probably an omission. I would agree that their fire arc is supposed to 180 to the sides. Or maybe the fire arcs are on the templates?

I need to look around.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:47 am 
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If by 'template' you mean the page that shows their hit location template, then no. I looked there.

As far as I can tell, Gargants (except for the Mega) have the same 180 front fire arc as every other Battle Titan just going by the RAW, including going back to SM2/TL. So it's not an omission after all, which means that it is actually a proposal.

Thus the Ork Gargant arm weapon 180 side arc would go into the "modified Titan fire arcs" options, or whatever it gets called.

I'd be in favor of having such an option in the game, but I do agree with Bissler that it shouldn't be a baseline thing. Baseline should stay 180 front for all but Mega and Imperator. (That's not exactly what you said, Bissler, but it should be close enough.)

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:18 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I'd be in favor of having such an option in the game, but I do agree with Bissler that it shouldn't be a baseline thing. Baseline should stay 180 front for all but Mega and Imperator. (That's not exactly what you said, Bissler, but it should be close enough.)


That's a fair summarization of my feelings on the subject. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:17 pm 
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It might be discussed somewhere.

A major problem in Netepic is the weakness of Tanks, Titans and other armoured stuff to normal Infantry fire,
alleged sloved in a mistyrious game whispered E:A :nooo
though there are guys out there loving Netepic and nothing more ;D

I thought about this problem and found obviously a sloution.

RULE:

Amoured vehilcles (Tanks, APCs, SPAs, Knights, Titans) might only be damaged by weapon fire having a TSM -1 or higher.



This means all this standard INf., all those multible Attackdice weapons without TSM are useless against amoured vehicles.
The rule gives a lot of units and weapons a new character or a character at all.

It´s simple to use and causes only some problems with special weapons.


What do you think guys?
I will try it in y next battle(if ever played)


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:18 am 
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I don't consider this to be a 'weakness' of NetEpic. I consider it a strength. It means that all models have a chance of being relevant on the battlefield. This proposal would severely weaken the basic Infantry types, and they are already quite weak as they are.

Besides, this is already covered in the interaction between the target's Armor Save value and the shooter's TSM. Doing this would not add any "character" to any models. All it would do is render most Infantry nearly useless. Even moreso than they already are.

Titans, Knights, and other Super Heavies are already immune to such stands, as is anything with a 1+ save. Titans are immune to them because such a stand can never take down their Shields (which already require a TSM of -1 to damage). Thus this change is really not needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Rules Forum
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:09 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I don't consider this to be a 'weakness' of NetEpic. I consider it a strength. It means that all models have a chance of being relevant on the battlefield. This proposal would severely weaken the basic Infantry types, and they are already quite weak as they are.

Besides, this is already covered in the interaction between the target's Armor Save value and the shooter's TSM. Doing this would not add any "character" to any models. All it would do is render most Infantry nearly useless. Even moreso than they already are.

Titans, Knights, and other Super Heavies are already immune to such stands, as is anything with a 1+ save. Titans are immune to them because such a stand can never take down their Shields (which already require a TSM of -1 to damage). Thus this change is really not needed.


Hi!


I agree with this assessment.

For many years this point has been discussed, but the problem of any such mechanic is that anti-personnel weapons become useless is the overall tactical realm of the game.

In the old days SM/AT1 had listing for a support weapon as well as anti-personnel. SM2 just abstracted this. So a weapon with no TSM doesn't mean it doesn't have a support weapon, just not a real good one. ;)

Its one of those compromises for game play. :)

Primarch

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