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[Rule]Snap Fire: many questions

 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:36 pm 
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Sorry Magnus, I was tired when I replied, I've removed the unclear sentence and the part about PD discussion.

So, after re-reading Peter reply, I conclude that:

- if I have revealed my first order, I can't perform a Snap Fire action (ranged or close combat)
- if my command unit has moved, I can't perform a Snap Fire action (ranged or close combat)


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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:53 pm 
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I think the part with a revealed first fire order makes absolutely no sense from a "game" perspective. We (our group) have not read the rules like that and any unit with first fire order (revealed or not revealed) can be used to snap fire. Of course the unit is done and spent after the snap fire.

Revealing a first fire order does not (IMO) activate the unit in the sense that it goes out of "over watch"....it has done nothing at all, only had a order token flipped. There have been no movement or anything that could explain that the unit can not use its order to first fire and thereby to "over watch" a charging enemy. Quite the other way around, those units have clearly stated that they are solely focused on shooting so why should they not be abler to fire.
If revealing a first fire order cancels snapfire then the armies with low activations and PD is hurt (as they cant soak up activations revealing first fire orders in fear of getting charged).

It might be decided that the rules states as much, but it makes no sense game-wise IMO, why a revealed first fire order cancels the ability to snap fire.


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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:30 pm 
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@scream: That's what I get from primarch's post as well, except that IMO there should not be a "close combat Snap Fire". All Snap Fire is at range, even when shooting at models that are Charging at the firing model(s).


@Ronnie_Nielsen: As much as I agree with your interpretation of how it should work, based on the RAW and what primarch posted about the intent behind the rules, it just doesn't work that way in Gold.

That said, you could always propose that the wording be changed to allow that for Platinum. Possibly even as an errata fix for Gold, though that may be harder to get votes for.

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:53 am 
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scream wrote:
Sorry Magnus, I was tired when I replied, I've removed the unclear sentence and the part about PD discussion.

So, after re-reading Peter reply, I conclude that:

- if I have revealed my first order, I can't perform a Snap Fire action (ranged or close combat)
- if my command unit has moved, I can't perform a Snap Fire action (ranged or close combat)


Hi!

The only purpose of revealing the order in this context is to:

1. Prove to the opponent the formation had first fire orders and is eligible to snap fire.

2. A revealed order means the formation had executed its actions for this turn and can no longer perform further actions (some exceptions may exist).

Note that the second can be easily achieved by removing the order altogether to signify the formation has acted (as I have seen some groups do). I keep the order revealed next to the formation to avoid confusion with formations with actual "no orders" (forgot to place counter at turns beginning).

I also find keeping them revealed reminds everyone of what took place.

Basically you usually cannot perform an action without revealing the order (how else would the opponent know you are eligible to do said action?). Once performed how you choose to keep track of activated formations (remove counter or leave it) is up to individual tastes.

Revealing an order and activation in this context is virtually synonymous. I can't recall a scenario where you "activate" a formation and don't reveal an order. Or the other way around. So if your doing something, odds are you will have to first reveal the order then execute whatever it is your going to do going by said order. They go hand in hand.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:32 am 
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primarch wrote:
The only purpose of revealing the order in this context is to:

1. Prove to the opponent the formation had first fire orders and is eligible to snap fire.

2. A revealed order means the formation had executed its actions for this turn and can no longer perform further actions (some exceptions may exist).

Note that the second can be easily achieved by removing the order altogether to signify the formation has acted (as I have seen some groups do). I keep the order revealed next to the formation to avoid confusion with formations with actual "no orders" (forgot to place counter at turns beginning).

I also find keeping them revealed reminds everyone of what took place.

Basically you usually cannot perform an action without revealing the order (how else would the opponent know you are eligible to do said action?). Once performed how you choose to keep track of activated formations (remove counter or leave it) is up to individual tastes.

Revealing an order and activation in this context is virtually synonymous. I can't recall a scenario where you "activate" a formation and don't reveal an order. Or the other way around. So if your doing something, odds are you will have to first reveal the order then execute whatever it is your going to do going by said order. They go hand in hand.

Primarch


Hi Peter,

I'm a bit confused about your explanation as, once players have placed all their orders during "Placing Order Segments", each player "activates" a detachment by revealing its order. When I reveal a "First Fire" Order on an artillery detachment, I have not executed its action (as its action is to fire during First Fire Segment). I've just revealed its order to "gain" an activation on my opponent as my Artillery detachment (Bombard detachment for example) weapon can not perform "Snap Fire" (its weapon is a ranged template weapon).
When I reveal an "Advance Order", I can perform advance movement for my detachment but it has not done all its actions, they will be able to fire in "Advance Fire" segment. I should remove order from a detachment once it has resolved all its actions. For example when detachment has:
- Charge order -> I remove its order once it has moved
- Advance Fire Order -> Once it has fired in Advance Fire segment (or when it has been charged and enemy pinning class is enough to prevent it from firing later)
- First Fire Order -> When I've revealed its order to perform a "Snap Fire" action or once it has fired in "First Fire Segment"


So if I follow the rule "no snap fire" once order is revealed, the only way to "keep" some activations to perform a snap fire action is to "pass" on revealing my orders. This means that by the start of First Fire segment, I can have some orders not revealed. This is very important in the case of my opponent has some skimmers that could perform pop-up actions. If I want to shoot at them when pop-uping, it's a "Snap Fire" action but as I can't do Snap Fire if I've revealed my First Fire Order. So I need to keep some detachments with an unrevealed First Fire order, the only way to be in this situation is to pass during "Movement Sequence".
This also mean that I could "bluff" by passing with some detachments in Advance or Charge Orders that I choose to not reveal their order (so they won't move) but my opponent will not know their order until a later segment (very probably not before Advance Fire Segment).


Is all the text in italic OK or is there something wrong ?

This way of playing (keeping some unrevealed orders for later snap fire) is quite complicated for a new player who has not read many many times all the rules and was not able to merge all the small rules about "Snap Fire" in a comprehensible rule and a clear "how to play it".


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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:55 pm 
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scream wrote:
primarch wrote:
The only purpose of revealing the order in this context is to:

1. Prove to the opponent the formation had first fire orders and is eligible to snap fire.

2. A revealed order means the formation had executed its actions for this turn and can no longer perform further actions (some exceptions may exist).

Note that the second can be easily achieved by removing the order altogether to signify the formation has acted (as I have seen some groups do). I keep the order revealed next to the formation to avoid confusion with formations with actual "no orders" (forgot to place counter at turns beginning).

I also find keeping them revealed reminds everyone of what took place.

Basically you usually cannot perform an action without revealing the order (how else would the opponent know you are eligible to do said action?). Once performed how you choose to keep track of activated formations (remove counter or leave it) is up to individual tastes.

Revealing an order and activation in this context is virtually synonymous. I can't recall a scenario where you "activate" a formation and don't reveal an order. Or the other way around. So if your doing something, odds are you will have to first reveal the order then execute whatever it is your going to do going by said order. They go hand in hand.

Primarch


Hi Peter,

I'm a bit confused about your explanation as, once players have placed all their orders during "Placing Order Segments", each player "activates" a detachment by revealing its order. When I reveal a "First Fire" Order on an artillery detachment, I have not executed its action (as its action is to fire during First Fire Segment). I've just revealed its order to "gain" an activation on my opponent as my Artillery detachment (Bombard detachment for example) weapon can not perform "Snap Fire" (its weapon is a ranged template weapon).
When I reveal an "Advance Order", I can perform advance movement for my detachment but it has not done all its actions, they will be able to fire in "Advance Fire" segment. I should remove order from a detachment once it has resolved all its actions. For example when detachment has:
- Charge order -> I remove its order once it has moved
- Advance Fire Order -> Once it has fired in Advance Fire segment (or when it has been charged and enemy pinning class is enough to prevent it from firing later)
- First Fire Order -> When I've revealed its order to perform a "Snap Fire" action or once it has fired in "First Fire Segment"


So if I follow the rule "no snap fire" once order is revealed, the only way to "keep" some activations to perform a snap fire action is to "pass" on revealing my orders. This means that by the start of First Fire segment, I can have some orders not revealed. This is very important in the case of my opponent has some skimmers that could perform pop-up actions. If I want to shoot at them when pop-uping, it's a "Snap Fire" action but as I can't do Snap Fire if I've revealed my First Fire Order. So I need to keep some detachments with an unrevealed First Fire order, the only way to be in this situation is to pass during "Movement Sequence".
This also mean that I could "bluff" by passing with some detachments in Advance or Charge Orders that I choose to not reveal their order (so they won't move) but my opponent will not know their order until a later segment (very probably not before Advance Fire Segment).


Is all the text in italic OK or is there something wrong ?

This way of playing (keeping some unrevealed orders for later snap fire) is quite complicated for a new player who has not read many many times all the rules and was not able to merge all the small rules about "Snap Fire" in a comprehensible rule and a clear "how to play it".


Hi!

Ah, I see where the problem lies now.

You really can't "pick" a formation on first fire orders during the movement phase in order to "gain" an activation advantage.

If the the formation has first fire orders it really should only be activated during the combat phase as it cannot move. That is too "gamey" and would go against the spirit, if not letter of the rules.

Therefore during the movement phase only formations with advance, charge, HQ units or other special move formations could be activated.

First fire formations cannot move, therefore can't just be "activated" and do nothing in the movement phase.

The only valid first fire activation in the movement phase is to snap fire.

In other words if you reveal your first fire counter in the movement phase is must be to perform snap fire. You don't just reveal it it and do nothing until it gets to fire. That would be an "empty activation" done for activation advantage which is invalid.

I believe if you eliminate this point, then everything else falls into place and the written rules make more sense as revealing the order means you have activated and you performed an action (moving then firing).

But in the case of first fire formation there is no movement, therefore, at least the way its been traditionally viewed for net epic in the context of alternating movement activation, those formations do not receive a "movement activation". Only a combat activation to resolve fire.

To do it the way your doing it gives first fire orders even more of an advantage that it has now (i.e too much).

One of the things that has been recommended for Platinum is that first fire have an associated cost. Since first fire formations are stationary opponents firing on them gain some sort of modifier or re-roll of misses.

That does not exist in Gold. Giving them an "empty" move activation segment makes first fire even more valuable than it already is.

Do you follow what I have tried to explain?

I have seen many interpretations of order handling and revealing, yours is a new interesting one I had not encountered. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:37 pm 
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Our Danish group had the same as the French with the "empthy" activation of first fire in the movement phase if that is not legal then the system you describe makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.


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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:44 am 
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primarch wrote:
You really can't "pick" a formation on first fire orders during the movement phase in order to "gain" an activation advantage.

If the the formation has first fire orders it really should only be activated during the combat phase as it cannot move. That is too "gamey" and would go against the spirit, if not letter of the rules.

...

I have seen many interpretations of order handling and revealing, yours is a new interesting one I had not encountered. :)

Primarch


Hi Peter,

it seems that your interpretation does not accord with what's written in the rules:

page 18) Movement Sequence

Quote:
When it is his turn to move, a player may choose any of his units to activate.
The order of movement is not dependant on the orders the unit has. This
means a player can activate a unit on Advance Orders, then select a unit on
First Fire Orders
followed by a command unit or a unit on Charge Orders. This,
in combination with revealing the orders only as units are activated, keeps the
opponent guessing as to the orders of the remaining units.


Moreover, in movement sequence, 2) Activating Units, 1) Units in First Fire, it's clearly stated that I can activate a unit in First Fire that does not have the ability to perform a Snap Fire to gain a "tactical advantage":
Quote:
(e.g. an obvious order such as, “This artillery battery is on First Fire Orders. It’s your turn to move a unit.")


So it seems that the way to alternatively activate/reveal detachments orders in movement sequence is not written as you explain it :-\


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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:53 pm 
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Hi!

It seems you caught another of the many holdovers errors from previous versions. Once alternating movement once put in, it no longer makes any sense to activate first fire formation in the movement phase because they cannot move. They only valid activation being snap fire.

This error promotes one of the things we dislike the most, which are "empty" activation. Which only really force the player with less first fire orders formations to move more of his formations, while the players with more first fire formations can delay moving the non- first fire formations to counter.

This leads to the ploy where the army with less mobility (army with more formations on first fire) is not penalized for doing so, since he can match the more mobile force (more units on advance and charge) to move more times before he has to move formations the few formations not on first fire orders.

Not fair and basically eliminates the only penalty in the game for first fire, which is not to move. This only reinforces the concept of putting most formations on first fire since there is no drawback. The army with more first fire formations should be at a disadvantage during the movement phase since he trades maneuver for the ability to fire before other orders.

However I am not surprised with such holdovers. The rules have been plagued with them and some errors/omissions date back to the first version.

Somewhere along the line of version the "fix" to this (when it was realized it didn't work the way we wanted), never got "in". Lost among more pressing concerns (you may think this is fairly "big", but compared to such things as flier systems, psychic systems, titans, etc, it was a fairly small concern).

It doesn't help that myself and most whom worked on the game "knew" the intent of the changes and played that way, but never really read the rules.

Currently though, I'd place this as a fairly big errata item in Gold.

I wonder how many more are playing the "rules as written" or simply playing based on them being around when things were "discussed".

In any event though, its threads and questions like this that highlight this perennial and recurrent problem, of the rules perhaps not correctly relaying the intent, nor the changes as they occurred.

I guess it was very prophetic of some to state that net epic would never truly be "finished".

They weren't kidding.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:56 am 
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Thanks Peter for all those explanations that clear many many questions about Snap Fire :)

Will test this way of activating detachements in next games :)

So I'll open some new threads about others questions that were asked during the Volcano In Paris :)


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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:56 pm 
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I'm not a fan of Snap Fire and never have been. It's been a long time since I actually used it in a game. The fact that I don't use it is less of an issue for Evolution rules rather than Gold.

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:53 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
I'm not a fan of Snap Fire and never have been. It's been a long time since I actually used it in a game. The fact that I don't use it is less of an issue for Evolution rules rather than Gold.


Hi!

It was problematic adding it to net epic.

The first attempt was to just put it in there like it functioned in AT/SM1.

That's when we noticed the "empty activation" phenomenon.

Unfortunately there were so many other pressing concerns that it got to the point that we "thought" it was fixed but wasn't.

I would agree it works with less fuss in Evolution. Integrated turn sequences are so much easier to tweak. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:19 am 
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Hi,

some questions have been asked on Epic-fr about Snap Fire & Light Artillery.

Snap Fire rule (page 19, top right box, second paragraph) says:
Quote:
You may not Snap Fire with template weapons or any unit classified as artillery.


Does the "classified as artillery" also concerns light artillery with direct fire (not ranged template or so) or is it for "Heavy Artillery".

- if it concerns both light & heavy artillery, Tarantulas Quickdraw ability is useless as not applicable.
- if it concerns only light & heavy artillery EXCEPT those with Quickdraw ability, it should be a bit more explicit
- if it concerns only heavy artillery, wording on Snap Fire Rule should be updated with "heavy artillery" instead of just "artillery".

I don't know if using only "artillery" is wanted or not. Maybe it's considered that light artillery could not perform snap fire as it's too long to move an artillery piece to target at a moving unit.

Thanks in advance for your returns about that.


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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:28 pm 
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This touches on an issue from another thread (Gold Armies/IG) dealing with "Artillery" and the somewhat vague definition of what is and is not Artillery. In that other thread, I mentioned that we should probably remove the reference to Artillery from the relevant rule, but that wouldn't quite work here. Well, it might. But first, the definition of Artillery:
Quote:
Artillery is a general term used to describe weapons that are capable of
both direct and indirect fire. An artillery unit is normally referred to as a battery, and
consists of three to five launchers. Artillery weapons have several special rules,
such as combining and indirect fire. Any weapon that lists a number of Barrage
Points (BP) instead of a number of Attack Dice will use the 6 cm barrage template.
Actually, just from this it is clear that a Tarantula can snap-fire, as it is not capable of Indirect Fire. Personally, I'd be in favor of making a minor edit to the wording of the rule that scream quoted above to:
Quote:
You may not Snap Fire with template weapons or any weapon capable of Indirect Fire.
This minor change, alongside specifically noting on each such weapon which can fire Indirectly that it can do so, would make the game clearer. Note that that is "weapon" and not "model", as any Direct Fire only weapons on a model should still be capable of Snap Fire even if the Indirect Fire ones are not.

Alongside that suggestion, it might help to rename the Pinning Class of "Light Artillery" to "Support Weapons" as mattman is/was doing for Platinum. Calling them all Artillery is confusing, as many of them are not. The Rapier should also be capable of performing Snap Fire.

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:34 am 
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In my handful of NetEpic Gold games, I have used the "empty activation" interpretation of First Fire, with units on First Fire being allowed to Snap Fire even if they have already been activated this Movement phase. This made sense to me coming from a Battletech background.

If I were to use primarch's interpretation that units on First Fire only activate if they Snap Fire, how is the opponent to know how many of your units still remain to be activated (on Charge or Advance orders)? You would then have a situation where Player A activates a unit on Advance orders, then Player B says "I'm done - all my units are on First Fire orders" but is not required to reveal any of the orders, then Player A activates another unit which Player B is then able to snap fire at. I find that more confusing than the "empty activation" interpretation. How does primarch's interpretation work in practice?

Thanks.

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