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Death Korps of Krieg

 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:43 am 
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primarch wrote:
duz.holger wrote:
Quick idea normally a company can only have 5 platoon cards attached to it but to accomidate the feeling of the dkok army’s huge formation structure I propose a 7 card support limit what do you say


Hi!

Anything is possible, after all the tyranids have a different manner of doing it too.

Instead of 7 cards, why not larger sized support cards? Or even support cards with more than one detachment?

Primarch


I just wanna keep the IG feel but still make it feel like dkok fort the siege of vrak books

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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:17 am 
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Hi what would be the price of 4 of these puppy’s

Quote:
Death Korps Mortar Team: Small mortar teams are equipped with small mortars: They can't fire and move.

Move 10, save na, caf 0, mortar, range 50cm, 1bp, tsm 0 , rof2, barrage

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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:37 am 
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Starting to look that over. Seems interesting, but I have a few questions.

1. Death Korps and environment. When you say "troops", what do you mean? Is it only Infantry? Is it all stands (Infantry, Light Artillery, Cavalry, & Dreadnought) ? Something else? I doubt that this could apply to Vehicles or higher Pinning Classes, as those are already sealed against environmental hazards. Also, how does the bonus apply to a stand that does not have a Save value?

2. Entrenchment and Mine Clearing. Again, you are using the word "troops". Please specify exactly which stands & models this applies to. This could be as simple as saying "All Infantry type stands get this ability" to as complex as noting it on a case by case basis.

3. Quarter Master. This is an interesting stand, but not "insanely good" by any means. I think you are over-valuing them.

4. Cyclops. What Pinning Class are you intending this to be? From the description, you seem to be considering them as Infantry. I would have thought that Light Artillery would be more likely, as it is a solid thing like a Tarantula or a Rapier, rather than actual people who can sit in seats. Also, they should probably give VP if they are destroyed by the enemy before they are able to blow themselves up.

5. Atlas Recovery Tank. The existing Tow ability is specifically and only useful for carrying Light Artillery. I would suggest replacing with the following, or something like it.
"Recovery: If this Vehicle begins a game turn adjacent to an allied Vehicle that for any reason cannot move this turn (aside from being on First Fire orders), this Vehicle may choose to move the immobile Vehicle along with it as it moves. If it does this, it may only move at half-speed, as allowed by it's orders. The immobile Vehicle will remain adjacent to this Vehicle for this entire turn."
For the Points Formula, I will value that as 5 point fixed value Special Ability.

6. Trailer. It might be a good idea to add a brief description of some kind. Is this model actually intended to transport Infantry (or other types of) stands? If not, then the Transport ability is incorrect. As far as I can tell, this model is only used to carry the prefabricated materials to allow the Hippogriff to build Bunkers and Walls. Probably the best thing to do with this would be to say that when a Hippogriff uses the materials in a Trailer, that specific Trailer is removed from the board and replaced with the thing that was built. Of course, this would mean that there would be two versions of the Trailer, one carrying a Bunker and one carrying Wall. The costs for each of these Abilities should be the cost of a Bunker or a Wall.
- The reason to do it that way is to be internally consistent with models in the game that become other models.

7. Bridging Vehicle. Does laying down a section of Bridge consume the Vehicle? If not, how many times during a battle can this model perform that function before it runs out of prefabricated materials to make into bridges?

8. Trojan. Early on in the description it says that it carries troops. Then at the end it seems to say that it cannot, but only has the Tow ability. Which one is correct?

9. Centaur. The Tow ability only needs to be specifically noted when the model has no other Transport capacity. The Core rules (on page 27) specifically state that any model with Transport (of any capacity) may also tow one LA stand in addition to its normal capacity. Only the Points Formula requires that this be added separately.

10. Salamander. Couple of typos of "SaLemander".

11. Gorgon. Er, what? The description says it can Transport, and I quote, "12 men and a support team." Twelve men is slightly over 2 stands of Infantry (5 men per stand), and adding a W40K support team would bring that to a nice 3 stands. The normal Transport capacity of a Gorgon (6 stands) is well enough to carry that twice over. In addition, doubling the Transport capacity of a Gorgon would require a much larger hull, and the resulting model would no longer be a Gorgon. It would be much simpler to just build the formations with one Gorgon per 6 stands of Infantry.


I also have a few formatting concerns.

Pages 3, 9, & 26 are completely blank and empty. Might be best to remove them.

Page 13 is mostly blank. I am guessing that you have a Page Break after the description of Robot. Should probably replace that with a couple of blank lines. Same with page 23.

It might be a good idea to either use a smaller font size for the statistics blocks or change the width of the columns a bit. Possibly both. It really doesn't look good when the 'M' in TSM is on a second line, or the 'ge' in Range. Try to keep any non-hyphenated word all on the same line.

The Hydra and "Skyshaker" are too close together. A couple of line breaks would be helpful.

Is there any particular reason that the Special Formations are listed before Company formations? In all other lists, they are between Company and Support. Also, you seem to have forgotten the Warlord Titan. Or are those not allowed to DKoK?

I am planning to run these through the Points Formula, but would like some clarification on these questions and concerns first.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:38 am 
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I will start work ASAP on your input an thank for it it is much apprisiated btw do you own pages so we could share cooperate on the list

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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:57 am 
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Quote:
4. Cyclops. What Pinning Class are you intending this to be? From the description, you seem to be considering them as Infantry. I would have thought that Light Artillery would be more likely, as it is a solid thing like a Tarantula or a Rapier, rather than actual people who can sit in seats. Also, they should probably give VP if they are destroyed by the enemy before they are able to blow themselves up.

Pinning class would properly be infantry do to the fact it is pictured as a large suetcase on tracks ie way smaller then a tarantula think of a UCV in the real army or nuglings. I agree that they should give På VP if killed but only if all are killed

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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:12 am 
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duz.holger wrote:
I will start work ASAP on your input an thank for it it is much appreciated btw do you own pages so we could share cooperate on the list


Not quite sure what you are asking here. I try to check this forum every few days. Sometimes several times a day. I can also be found on Facebook, in either of the Epic based groups.


duz.holger wrote:
Pinning class would properly be infantry do to the fact it is pictured as a large suetcase on tracks ie way smaller then a tarantula think of a UCV in the real army or nuglings. I agree that they should give På VP if killed but only if all are killed


Got it. They are smaller than I thought they were.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:28 pm 
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Ok next revision plz check and report your thoughts on it


Attachments:
death korps of krieg V 3.2 2.pdf [405.91 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:06 am 
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I have not read it as yet, but already have one criticism. You should probably increment the version number when you do a significant revision. Thus wouldn't this be 3.2.3? Otherwise why even have the version numbers at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:22 am 
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Good idea its just that i am a little lazy when it com to pages name editing it’s a betch

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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:19 pm 
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Hi Are you using the Siege of Vraks books for info?
I know you have put alot of work into this but I see some problems.
Sorry in advance if I am blunt.

The Siege of Vraks was a long campaign over 10 years . The DKoK lost over 14 million troops a lot of these ideas are too good and they give too much free stuff which would make these abilities overpowered.

Firing light arty on advance order after moving/ unlimbering, Too strong
If a towed arty piece (being towed) is under charge orders then it cannot be unlimbered/deployed it gets the benefit of the vehicles speed.
If on advance (being towed) then you can move and unlimber/deploy but cannot fire. 1/2 turn to move 1/2 turn to limber /unlimber.
These can only fire if previously unlimbered the turn before.
If already unlimbered they can advance move 5cm and fire . the 5cm move represents manhandling the guns.
I would skip the not moving part and just give them a base move of 5cm/10cm on charge for the smaller guns. Heavy ones should stay put.

For example larger command radius.
It just makes it over complicated I don't think you need the 25cm from the main HQ

3cm of trenches in one turn per stand? You know 50cm of trenches costs 150 points in net epic under fortifications are you suggesting they get them for free?
A better solution for this is they get to dig in and get light cover (foxholes) they cannot shoot while doing this. Even then digging in was only used at the start of epic games for hidden units and once they moved it was lost.

+2 save vrs chemical attacks is too strong
They use gas masks just to be able to breath on vraks they are not wearing sealed suits to protect from radiation or virus bombs.

Mine clearing a whole base of mines = too strong
5 minefields costs 150 points you get 30 stands for 400 this makes it too easy. There is no risk to the units doing the clearing. I would suggest this only is given to engineers and even then the minefield gets one chance to hit them as per normal.

Genaders adding more entrenchments = not thier job they are assault troops that will be done by engineers
50cm of wire costs 150points
The siege of Vraks was a long term fight with over 14 million Death Korps killed over a 10 year war nothing was done this fast

Army size and cards there are other ways to represent this

Recovery is done by specific vehicles.
You as a wargamer do not like losing your troops or getting them stuck. For the DKoK its just another day. The designated recovery vehicles will do this , and they are few and far between.
Vehicles that got stuck or captured were reused by the other side, there are many references to this In the Vraks books.

I am only trying to help balance this for game purposes.
Cheers


Last edited by SquatWarlord on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:41 pm 
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Firing a Light Artillery (or any stand) after moving / unloading from a Transport is allowed under the basic rules for NetEpic Gold.

Any carried stand can be unloaded while the Transport is on either Charge or Advance orders, for the normal loss of 5cm of movement for both the transport and the transported. Again, this is a standard NetEpic Gold rule.

Where is your complaint of 25cm Command radius coming from? 25cm is the normal Imperial Guard radius.

The point about the trenches is a good point. There is just no way that 5 men can dig 120m of trenches in a half an hour. See the Core Rules pdf, page 8, under Scale. Even with proper backhoe vehicles it would likely take longer than that. The idea about light cover (IE, as a Light Building) foxholes sounds better.

As to the bonus vs Environmental saves, it does seem odd that the DKoK should be better protected from that than a Space Marine who is actually in a sealed suit. How about the following as a compromise?
_ "Any DKoK Infantry, Light Artillery, or Cavalry stand gains an Armor save of 6+ against Disease, Radiation, Virus, or other related hazards unless that stand already has an Armor Save of any kind, in which case use the existing save value."
This would make them a bit - but not too much - better against such things, much like how the Storm Trooper stand is better against Barrage Weapons.

Mine Clearing. On further thought, I agree that this could be too strong. Or it could be useless if your foe does not use any Minefields. Still, either way, they should have to roll to possibly take a hit for clearing the field as per the normal Combat Engineer rules.

I agree that Grenadiers probably should not add more Entrenchments. They already have Flamers and Grenades, giving this to them would just be too much.

Agreed about Army Size. Epic scale armies are already much, much larger than a W40K scale army. If anything, the number of allowed Support formations should be reduced so as to encourage the player to take more Company formations. Adding more Support will only lead to smaller groups overall. Also, having them bunch up like Orks do will reduce the overall number of activations, which may be a bad thing. It is also not something that Imperial forces do, and as such would be considered Heresy by any competent Commissar. As was already suggested, perhaps increasing the number of detachments in a Company and/or increasing the number of stands/models in a detachment might be a better idea.

Now that I think about it, the only way to become immobilized during play in NetEpic Gold is to be pinned in Close Combat or be affected by a very small number of effects, mostly from Psychic abilities. Terrain in NetEpic Gold does not have the ability to immobilize vehicles, so having the ability to Recover them during the game would almost universally be a waste of points. Yes, it is very flavorful for the army, but just not really relevant during play. The model could be useful for a specific scenario, but likely not for general play.

------

Oh, I am not concerned with the name of the thread. It is the name of the file that should have been updated to 3.2.3 (or whatever), and that is very easy to change. Just use "Save As..." rather than "Save" after editing. You probably knew that.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:23 am 
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Where is your complaint of 25cm Command radius coming from? 25cm is the normal Imperial Guard radius.
I guess I was confused by his description of it.

[quote="MagnusIlluminus"]Firing a Light Artillery (or any stand) after moving / unloading from a Transport is allowed under the basic rules for NetEpic Gold.

Any carried stand can be unloaded while the Transport is on either Charge or Advance orders, for the normal loss of 5cm of movement for both the transport and the transported. Again, this is a standard NetEpic Gold rule.

These guns are towed behind the vehicles (Centaurs), the crew is carried inside.
They are not light weapons they are heavy mortars like a griffen and thud guns.
Attachment:
99020187314_DKoKHeavyMortarBundle01.jpg
99020187314_DKoKHeavyMortarBundle01.jpg [ 65.4 KiB | Viewed 136 times ]

They have no integral movement capability and would be too heavy to manhandle.
So should they be considered the same as man portable weapons? Like a mole mortar?
Attachment:
99590105065_ElysianMortarTeam01.jpg
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This is a drop troop light mortar
Attachment:
99550105035_DKOKMortarTeam201.jpg
99550105035_DKOKMortarTeam201.jpg [ 56.23 KiB | Viewed 129 times ]
DKoK is heavier
Attachment:
99550105029_DKOKAutocannonTeam101.jpg
99550105029_DKOKAutocannonTeam101.jpg [ 48.03 KiB | Viewed 129 times ]

An ork version is the tracktor cannon or a hopsplat gun.
Eldar would be vibro cannons (maybe a bad example since they are anti grav powered)

If all of these fit the light artillery class then cool.

So how do towed heavy artillery like this work?
Attachment:
99020187316_EarthshakerCarriageBattery01.jpg
99020187316_EarthshakerCarriageBattery01.jpg [ 81.15 KiB | Viewed 136 times ]

Would you consider these to work like this
Being towed under charge orders = no unlimber
Advance can limber & move or move & unlimber cannot fire
First fire no movement

The current rules do not cover all of these


Last edited by SquatWarlord on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:24 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:28 am 
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Attachment:
99590105070_ElysianHeavyBolterSquad01.jpg
99590105070_ElysianHeavyBolterSquad01.jpg [ 55.3 KiB | Viewed 127 times ]
Air dropped
Attachment:
99550105119_IMPERIALQUADLAUNCHERTHUDDGUN1.jpg
99550105119_IMPERIALQUADLAUNCHERTHUDDGUN1.jpg [ 23.35 KiB | Viewed 127 times ]

Same size as the mortar
Attachment:
99550105354_CadianHostileEnvirontmentCommandSquad01.jpg
99550105354_CadianHostileEnvirontmentCommandSquad01.jpg [ 65.09 KiB | Viewed 127 times ]
Shows another Imperial Guard army (Cadians) with rebreathers who are not DeathKoK
Attachment:
99550105286_DKOKMoleLauncher01.jpg
99550105286_DKOKMoleLauncher01.jpg [ 60.42 KiB | Viewed 127 times ]
This now only has 24inch range and takes two turns to get to the target if it is over 12inches. It is primarily used by engineers while underground to breach other tunnels.
Attachment:
99550105103_CyclopsDemolitionVehicle03.jpg
99550105103_CyclopsDemolitionVehicle03.jpg [ 51.52 KiB | Viewed 127 times ]
To show the scale.

http://www.pfc-cinc.com/catalog/item/80 ... 414758.htm look at the picture and go to page two there is a excellent proxy if you cut off the arm.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:22 am 
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For scale Centaurs

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6d47d7d945d83a3c75d1b6ef9ce19a08.jpg [ 28.86 KiB | Viewed 121 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Death Korps of Krieg
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:22 am 
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Attachment:
DSC06964.jpg
DSC06964.jpg [ 283.65 KiB | Viewed 121 times ]
For scale


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