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Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=33281
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Author:  Dave [ Tue May 15, 2018 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

I put my hand up for Squat AC so here we are.

I combed through Elsaurio's and StevekCoke's feedback threads, and took a look at Elsaurio's, Mosc's and the UK list for them (stopped there though, didn't look at Moko's or ePilgrim's stuff from 10+ years ago). My intention was to incorporate as much as I could from those sources with an eye towards making the list work in EA as it did in SM/TL with Ork and Squat Warlords (O&SW). The attached PDF is the result.

If you're interested in my thoughts on the stat changes, I've attached a doc file.

For the special rules, I just tried to reduce and streamline them as much as possible. That involved dropping Automaton/Automata. Spotter works pretty close to Elsaurio's version, I just limited spotting to the same formation.

On the army list, I based the numbers off of O&SW cards and box/blister contents. I figured that's what most people would have in their collections. I did use the Ork list model however, to give people maximum flexibility with what they have on hand. Conveniently, Onslaught's Grud are sold in similar numbers.

I did add the Steel Hawk, War Hawk and three Battlecars from CJ14, as I thought they looked fun. I also added a Colossus robot as I'm sure most people have them sitting around, and why not.

The New England group should be able to get some games in with this in June. I'm hoping to use it for twelve months or so and put it up for approval with changes if we have the reports from 2-3 other groups.

Thanks for looking, playtests welcome.

Attachments:
netea-squat-2018-05-15.pdf [98.36 KiB]
Downloaded 315 times
squat-unit-stat-change-thoughts.doc [18 KiB]
Downloaded 135 times

Author:  Norto [ Wed May 16, 2018 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

Hey Dave, never played with or against the squats. So I'm not really a position for feedback. But happy to play some games against it on vassal if you would like to test it out.

Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Wed May 16, 2018 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

Thanks Dave, will try and get some time to look at these.

Author:  Dave [ Wed May 16, 2018 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

Thanks guys.

Ya, we should get a VASSAL game in again Norto. Squats/Inq/whatever.

Author:  Yvain [ Mon May 21, 2018 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

Some initial thoughts on this list.

I like the looks of a lot of the changes, however I think you should move away from the S, M, L format and the "any number" options. These options open the door for min-maxing your choices and ruin internal balance. Like you can take a unit of thunders right now that puts out 15 AT shots and then add in guns for more. The result is there is no reason to ever take warriors. I can just screen the thunderers with berserkers if I wanted them to have some better CC.

By going with you get X amount of models with option for X upgrade you can better add balance to choices and make them more competitive. If you keep SML use it sparingly.

The Goliath mega cannon as it stands needs to be rethought. There is hardly a reason to take it when I can take massive mole mortar squads that do the same thing and can get an absurd number of BPs. There used to be an option where it had MW and IC, understand that is poweful, but it is a warmachine it has to compete with things like teh cyclops which are alway very tough.

I would say return it back to M,IC, 3BP, make you take two and up the price. Bring back reinforced armor as well.

Still looking for my exo-armor temrinator unit also what happened to the hellbore?

Author:  Dave [ Mon May 21, 2018 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

The Ork list has shown that the format works. It also allows for the greatest flexibility when putting together an army, and given the models haven't been produced in 25 years I think that's important. People have varied collections, I want to make it as easy as possible for them to use it all. If one option is getting taken over another than we adjust the points and go from there.

Having faced Chaos Ferals when they had MW, IC, I don't think giving it to an artillery unit that can hit you anywhere on the battlefield is going to be much fun for the opponent. I'd agree that it should be that given the O&SW stats, but that combination of abilities with Indirect makes for a rough unit to take on.

Was there an exo-armor terminator unit in any of the old lists? It wasn't in Mosc's or Elsaurio's, nor in O&SW.

The Hellbore I dropped as I never found rules saying the Squats could take it.

Author:  Yvain [ Mon May 21, 2018 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

That is kind of the Ork's special thing. Their units are often worse so buying stuff at a discount that is less optimal already isn't that game breaking.

For the squats, you have stronger choices. At 500 points can get you a Small Thunderer Squad and 10 Rapiers. Garrison those guys up and you have 10 AT+4 5 AT +6 without sustaining and potentially getting +4 cover all around.

Take 16 mole mortars for 400 points, you now have a BP 16 unit. I can spam those all day. Everything they shoot gets 5 blast markers base no matter what. Garrison those as well, and you can hit likely anything turn one murdering any infantry in the game.

Not saying it should go away completely, you just need hard limits on stuff.

I will link the pages from where I'm getting the other data on hellboard, Exo, and the Goliath.

Author:  Yvain [ Mon May 21, 2018 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

Here it is.

Not saying this list doesn't need a lot of work.

They have hearthguard down as the termin unit, should just be exo-armor units, models exist it would be cool to use them.

Hellbore is added, which makes sense if you have the other types of mole this should be there as well.

In this list the goliath is way to cheap for what it does. Not saying this has to stay, but for squats its kind of all about the warmachines. Making the cannon a warmachine that is expensive and killy, but fragile gives it a lot of weakness for its buck while still forcing it to compete with things like land trains or the cyclops for points. Your goliath is DOA, its basically just a weaker basilisk crew that eats up WM points when you could already take the fire superior Mortar forces I posted earlier.

Attachments:
netea_army_list_compendium_2014-01-14-217squat removed.pdf [652.47 KiB]
Downloaded 73 times

Author:  StevekCole [ Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

Nice one Dave. I’m looking forward to giving this a run out.

Author:  Dave [ Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

Thanks, let me know how it goes. Norto and I got a VASSAL game in the other week. I used what I'm calling the "five sprue special", basically most of a Squat Warriors box.

Author:  StevekCole [ Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

Nice - will do Dave. Probably won’t get anything in this month but hopefully get some game time July/Aug. Will make sure all results are posted up!

Author:  Mattman [ Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

I like a bit of where it is going, harking back to 2nd ed days is a good thing.

Don't think I ever remember seeing the exoarmour squats as a separate unit back in 2nd ed days, think they were only there as upgrades or special characters. That's not to say that it wouldn't work as piling a load of exoarmour squats out of a mole or hellbore would be quite fun :D

But I agree that I don't think the S/M/L formation sizes works here. That sort of thing sits fine with Orks who are more cheap and cheerful and horde like. Squats don't really fit in with the horde style, they more like eldar and marines, with less men, but more specialists and fun toys.

Author:  Dave [ Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

If most of the M and L formations aren't being used we'll see about dropping them, I just trying to make it as easy as possible for people to get an army on the top with whatever they have.

On the Exo formation, not sure where that compendium list came from. It wasn't from Jaldon, ePilgram, Mosc or anyone else from that era.

Author:  Mattman [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

Few other comments after some more digesting.

You can present a flexible option to the formations by just having the core size and the "add extra stands" upgrade options. A simple "add up to 4 extra stands" for the Bezerkers and Thunderers gives you plenty enough room to expand from 6 to 10 in the formation. Not sure on what that number would be for the Warriors, but I would think 10 is plenty.

Either the Thunderers should have a Hearthguard as Core, or the Bezerkers should lose theirs and have it moved to an upgrade. Currently the formations are in a weird situation that the Bezerkers and Warriors would benefit from gaining additional Heathguard stands as you take larger formations, but the Thunderers will only ever have access to one from the upgrade option.
Back in the day both the Berzerkers and Thunderers gained their Hearthguard stand when part of a company card, the basic support cards only had the 5 stands of troops.
I would just give the Thunderers the Hearthguard as core to match the others.

Tarantulas aren't really Artillery, so not sure it that is the correct name for the support detachment. Maybe have two weapon batteries, one with Mortars/Thudd Guns and one with Rapiers/Tarantulas, or just throw them all into one and just call it a Support Weapon Battery or whatever.
Also, should Tarantulas be available to the infantry like Rapiers?

I don't know how other Barrage Weapons have changed from 2nd ed to Armageddon but the Mole Mortars have maintained their 1 BP and the Goliath is effectively less than half (was D6+4, so average of 7/8). Obviously the rules have changed, but given what it is meant to do, it feels like a bump in BP would be useful.

That's all for now.

Matt

Author:  Dave [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

Mattman wrote:
You can present a flexible option...


The formations presented allow you to play them as such while not preventing someone who wants to play with bigger formations from playing with bigger formations.

Mattman wrote:
Either the Thunderers should have a Hearthguard as Core, or the Bezerkers should lose theirs and have it moved to an upgrade. Currently the formations are in a weird situation that the Bezerkers and Warriors would benefit from gaining additional Heathguard stands as you take larger formations, but the Thunderers will only ever have access to one from the upgrade option.


No, it scales. It's the same as the Ork extras "If there is a limit on the number of units that may be added or replaced then this limit is doubled for medium formations and tripled for large formations." Thunderers don't have the Hearthguard because the models are limited and it helps keep their formation cost down. Berzerkers on the other hand were given one because a 5 strong formation would be too cheap for a core formation.

Quote:
I don't know how other Barrage Weapons have changed from 2nd ed to Armageddon but the Mole Mortars have maintained their 1 BP and the Goliath is effectively less than half (was D6+4, so average of 7/8). Obviously the rules have changed, but given what it is meant to do, it feels like a bump in BP would be useful.


There's a scale I used in there, it's closer to logarithmic than linear. Having played a few games with both the BP values feel right.

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