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Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)

 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:49 am 
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Onyx wrote:
Markconz wrote:
However, the issue also is that Australia seems pretty isolated in interpretation of terrain rules. And if that's the case, and most of the world seems to have agreed on an alternative, this might actually be worthy of the attention of the NetEA committee to clear all this up and go with the majority interpretation.

Trust me, this is not just an Australian thing.
I posted before that we play basically the same as Dave and co up in the US.
The fact that someone said that I was wrong is interesting as I'm the only person I know that has played in both metas and I can state that we do play the same way.

I believe there are far less players playing infinite height terrain than is often mentioned here.

Certainly the UK (not just EpicUK), Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, New Zealand, a number of groups in the US+the initial testers and game designers all play, or played, infinite height. To present it as some weird house rule is idiotic

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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:56 am 
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And the rules say otherwise.
Quote:
    The to hit modifier also applies if intervening terrain obscures the target partially from view
    Units on hills will benefit from better lines of sight to enemy units, as they will be high enough to see over some terrain features
    The method used by the author (and the default you should use if you can’t agree to an alternative) is that a weapon is in range if any bit of the attacking weapon is within range of any part of the target model (or at least one of the models on a target stand)
    In Epic, the terrain and the models are assumed to be the same scale, so if you want to check a difficult line of sight between two units, all you need to do is bend over and get a model’s eye view to see if they are in each others line of fire

Again, with the insulting language...
Just move on.
We know your stance and it isn't going to change (nor should it).
Play your way and allow others to play theirs with insulting them.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:01 am 
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Onyx wrote:
And the rules say otherwise.
Quote:
    The to hit modifier also applies if intervening terrain obscures the target partially from view
    Units on hills will benefit from better lines of sight to enemy units, as they will be high enough to see over some terrain features
    The method used by the author (and the default you should use if you can’t agree to an alternative) is that a weapon is in range if any bit of the attacking weapon is within range of any part of the target model (or at least one of the models on a target stand)
    In Epic, the terrain and the models are assumed to be the same scale, so if you want to check a difficult line of sight between two units, all you need to do is bend over and get a model’s eye view to see if they are in each others line of fire

Again, with the insulting language...
Just move on.
We know your stance and it isn't going to change (nor should it).
Play your way and allow others to play theirs with insulting them.

Can you really not see how antagonistic your posts have been? :{[]

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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:03 am 
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That is a 2 way street Steve.
I'm sorry for being antagonistic but I didn't start using language like "Wierd, crazy, out of touch, a pain in the ass, awful TLOS rule from Warhammer, ludicrous, a fallacy, makes no sense' etc"
Can you understand that as being Antagonistic as well?

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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:09 am 
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Onyx wrote:
That is a 2 way street Steve.
I'm sorry for being antagonistic but I didn't start using language like "Wierd, crazy, out of touch, a pain in the ass, awful TLOS rule from Warhammer, ludicrous, a fallacy, makes no sense' etc"
Can you understand that as being Antagonistic as well?


Surely you aren't just porting in the awful TLOS rule from Warhammer or something? Is the only part of that which is posted in this thread

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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:20 am 
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Steve, you yourself used the word ludicrous on page 2.
Mark used the word crazy (all be it tongue in cheek maybe).

Again, we are bickering pointlessly.
The fervour with which some seem to need to defend their point of view is amazing.
This is toy soldiers and I've shown the relevant rules for all to see.

What else is there to do here but let Elsaurio take control of his own thread again.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:10 am 
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*grabs popcorn and puts on a helmet*

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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:48 am 
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Whoops, AC here guys, let's cool everything down in here. It's good to see the Squats getting some attention and I think that the terrain discussion is a valid, interesting discussion but may be better suited in a different forum.

I may be personally to blame for offhandedly referring to using the straight Net Armageddon terrain rules from the book as 'TLOS' thereby giving everyone a false impression that we were using some strange line of sight rules similar to 28mm 40k and Fantasy (which is controversial within their own systems).

Thank you to Onxy for clarifying that the Cancon tournament was using vanilla rules though. I'd like to remind everyone that our local scene also commonly uses the houserules 'infinite height/more abstract levels' system that others are discussing.

Whatever your terrain preference, I can safely say that we have tried both and found that the bezerkers/Thunderfire/Overlord spam lists (because it's not just the 'lords that make up this problem) are an area that requires some attention from the rules crew.

I also remind everyone that this spam list is only recent to the 1.5 list as previously Overlords were confined to the War Engine category in 1.4 and below. Hence some long time players may not have encountered this build before.

I encourage everyone to keep posting on this topic but let's try for 10% more civility, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:01 pm 
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There was a request made for play testing from UK players so me and Steve will be trying out and posting a battle report on the 5 overlord list. The opponent will be Dark Eldar, a force we consider to be particularly vulnerable to this build with its low saves, light vehicles and small numbers.

With 2 experienced squat players the outcome could be intresting.

Will post link to battle report here.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:06 pm 
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Lists and results for Squat lists in Epic UK tournaments to date can be found here, just search under Squats. http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionship/albyr.php

Feel free to extrapolate as you will.

An FYI, I think I sustained with a unit 4 times in the whole tournament and advanced about twice. Overlords were, for me, the weakest unit in my list (either dying or hiding) - MVP were probably the gyros or the thunderfires.

All games were played with standard Epic UK tournament rules (all terrain is infinite height etc).

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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:26 pm 
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EUK squats have won 4 out of 4 games that weren't against other squats or Richard :) pretty good so far

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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:43 pm 
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ffoley wrote:
EUK squats have won 4 out of 4 games that weren't against other squats or Richard :) pretty good so far


I know, they're clearly broken.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:46 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
Lists and results for Squat lists in Epic UK tournaments to date can be found here, just search under Squats. http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionship/albyr.php

Feel free to extrapolate as you will.

An FYI, I think I sustained with a unit 4 times in the whole tournament and advanced about twice. Overlords were, for me, the weakest unit in my list (either dying or hiding) - MVP were probably the gyros or the thunderfires.

All games were played with standard Epic UK tournament rules (all terrain is infinite height etc).


It's only a sample of two squat armies but what I make of it is this:
Squat generals are only taking the same few cherry picked choices over and over again.

Bezerkers.
Thunderfires.
Bikes.
Overlords.
+ all the war machines.

There might be a gyro or two in there.

What are we not seeing?
Warriors
Thunderers
Thuds guns
Mole mortars
Moles
Hellbores
Rapiers
Tarantulas
Robots

If that doesn't indicate that there is something imbalanced in the Squat list then not much will.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:55 pm 
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Elsaurio wrote:
StevekCole wrote:
Lists and results for Squat lists in Epic UK tournaments to date can be found here, just search under Squats. http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionship/albyr.php

Feel free to extrapolate as you will.

An FYI, I think I sustained with a unit 4 times in the whole tournament and advanced about twice. Overlords were, for me, the weakest unit in my list (either dying or hiding) - MVP were probably the gyros or the thunderfires.

All games were played with standard Epic UK tournament rules (all terrain is infinite height etc).


It's only a sample of two squat armies but what I make of it is this:
Squat generals are only taking the same few cherry picked choices over and over again.

Bezerkers.
Thunderfires.
Bikes.
Overlords.
+ all the war machines.

There might be a gyro or two in there.

What are we not seeing?
Warriors
Thunderers
Thuds guns
Mole mortars
Moles
Hellbores
Rapiers
Tarantulas
Robots

If that doesn't indicate that there is something imbalanced in the Squat list then not much will.


Gotta say I disagree on this one, firstly Mark and I didn't have enough warriors painted up for the tournament. It is that simple! I'll definitely be taking them in future. Worth noting that the epic uk price for warriors makes them way more viable as choice than in net ea.

In the UK lists thud guns, mole mortars, rapiers, robots etc are all the same unit (heavy support) and I find that a bit sub par (though others have differed on that thread and said it's overpowered). Tunnlers for me aren't as good as rhinos, they'll win you the odd game but more often than not they just get destroyed. Thunderers are fine but for me there's better support options, land trains likewise.

Also, slightly inaccurate just to say 'all the war engines' as it implies there isn't choice there. That's a thousand points we spent completely differently.

Basically, of the 13 units available in the list 9 were taken. Hardly an imbalance. Also, you should remember Mark and I are in the same club so there's always going to be a bit of group think going on with our lists. It'll be interesting to see what players from other clubs bring.

In summary, 2 units (thunderers & land train) are IMO a bit weaker than others (which is totally normal list wise), another (infantry) is really good but we aren't fast enough painters (15 rhinos, 2 thunderfires, and a few infantry stands in a week was enough for me) and another (heavy support) Mark and I don't rate another but some people think it's awesome (so a personal preference and play style issue).

Lastly, worth noting I finished above my tournament par and Mark below so in terms of our expectations as players it pretty much balances out (if that makes sense). I'd also say that our results contradict the feedback from cancon as my lower overlord count, lower activation list did better. But I'd say the BIG learning is don't read too much into one set of results!!!! My list is pretty much the EPIC UK version of the the Net EA list I used in the non official London Derby last year where my results were 2 draws and a loss (see here http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=29645. Still don't agree? Look at the Dark Eldar results, 5 wins 1 draw at Wrath of the Tyrant make it look amazing, 2 wins 3 losses at the GT make it look meh.

I certainly wouldn't draw any firm conclusions until you've seen various tournaments, with various lists used, and various players using them.

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Last edited by StevekCole on Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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