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New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0

 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Well, I didn't delete them. I just made them part of existing Warrior formations. The ratio matches pretty close what players would have gotten on sprues.

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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:12 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
Well, I didn't delete them. I just made them part of existing Warrior formations. The ratio matches pretty close what players would have gotten on sprues.

Yeah and the hearthguard formation had no support in the old rules (army cards), they were always à single unit leading lesser troops not a formation of their own.


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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:16 pm 
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For the Land Train, how about using a rule similar to the original? You can't have duplicate cars unless the train has at least one of each. Or just put limits, say no more than 2 of each car per train.

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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Or to keep it simple:
-starts with engine and 1 car
-may add further 3 cars for X points (1 of each type)
-may add a further 3 cars for Y points (again 1 of each type)

Tweak as you see fit but the principle is that only have a few limited choices so easier to balance. Also reflects old rule of no duplicate unless has at least one of each. Avoids worst of any possible min-maxing whilst keeps old timers happy in that they can use their original land trains.

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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:08 pm 
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I don't think forcing people to take all four cars is a good idea. Model availability is a problem that needs to be taken into consideration. Many might not have one of each or even four. I think the number of cars should be up to the player, but with à maximum like we have in the current list.


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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:19 pm 
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I think Curis has the best idea tbh. It's easier to balance and is good from a list design perspective (This thing will drive you crazy trying to get right in the future).

It's also the fairest to all modellers, as it allows them to use all of their cars, no-matter wich ones they have and fits with the abstract nature of epic.


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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:25 pm 
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I agree, I think making it a single, fixed configuration ( I vote one of each car) is far better in terms of game balance, the crit table can just be amended to say that each crit destroys a trailer weapon....

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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:58 pm 
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I can understand availablity of specific cars could be an issue. Speaking personally I have 2 Land Trains but only a single Dragon Battlecar.

So for each block of 3 extra cars you have to choose 3 different types from the 4 available. That would mean the most you have of any one specific battlecasr would be 3- the initial choice plus one for each of 2 blocks of 3 extra cars.

So wording something like:

Basic: 1 engine and 1 battlecar (from choice of 4 options)
1st upgrade: 3 battlecars for X points (with no duplicate selections from choice of 4 options)
2nd upgrade: 3 battlecars for Y points (with no duplicate selections from choice of 4 options)

Am sure someone could phrase it more eloquently.


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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:26 pm 
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Wargame, your situation is not unique. Plenty of collectors are short one car or another. It would be a shame to penalize players just because one car needs adjusting (Berserkers).

Curis' example is a good one that needs to be spelled out. With changes to the Engine (no shields) and the Berserker cars (+50 pts points each or 100 pts total, -1 EA on CC), you get...

Berserker Railroad Configuration (6 Berserker cars)
1 x Doomsday Cannon, 120cm MW BP3
2 x Battlecannons, 75cm, AP4+/AT4+
6 x Autocannons, 45cm, AP5+/AT6+
14 x FF 4+ or 14 x FF 4+ (presuming a change in extra attacks)
DC8, 6 Shields
800 points

So the question is, are Berserker cars really worth 100 points? If we make them 75 points that puts the price at 650pts total.

Compare that to a Warlord Titan:
Volocano Cannon 90cm MW2+ Titan Killer (D3), Forward Arc
2 x Turbo-Laser Destructors 45cm 4 x AP5+/AT3+ Fixed Forward Arc
Gatling Blaster 45cm 4 x AP4+/AT4+ Forward Arc
8 x FF 3+ or 8 x CC 2+
DC8, 6 Shields
Walker
850 points
--

Are there any other obscene combinations anyone can come up with in terms of the Cars?

So far the best solution I've read is Dwarf Supreme's where the same car can't be taken more than twice. It doesn't impose a model owning requirement but still limits the Berserker Railroad build.

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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Unfortunately I never think of a model limit when it comes to Squats, because I have at least two of everything, three of everything for Land Trains. Note, this is not meant to be a boast.

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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
So far the best solution I've read is Dwarf Supreme's where the same car can't be taken more than twice. It doesn't impose a model owning requirement but still limits the Berserker Railroad build.


I like this. I have a very odd mix of train parts that should hopefully round to about 2 trains in the end, the above would give me room to work with my collection. I have no dragon cars ???

Is a max of two the right balance between choice and balance – would a max of three of each work? I don't mind, just asking the question :D

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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:59 pm 
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I think no more than two of each kind is good. That gives a maximum of 8 cars though or in other words DC 10/8 shields. I think max 6 cars is a better cap.


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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:07 pm 
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It's a shame because there are some combinations that would be great to try out like a Siege Mortar Train.

My first preference would be a simple points & stat fix, but if we can't come up with something that everyone can agree on, a 2 car limit per type is a healthy way to keep the Berserkers (and Bomb Cars I suppose) from getting silly. It also naturally limits the size of a Train to 8 Cars.

So let's take a look at all the cars and see if the points for each car make sense. Any thoughts on the Berserkers before we move onto the next? Does 75 points each car and +1 EA for FF and CC sound appropriate? Or no?

This isn't meant to discount the argument for a 'static' configuration for the train. If the models were being produced I would support it. However the models aren't being produced and I need to come up with a solution that fits the best. A piece-meal selection doesn't hurt anyone; it only makes my job more difficult (which is fine). A static configuration is bound to screw up somebody. Sure, they could field the train with the model missing, but they could also use matchboxes for Leman Russes too.

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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:11 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I don't really see the logic in deleting exo-armour just because some people don't have the original gw models (there are plenty of proxies available these days, surely).

Exos are round and sort of gold coloured ye? we're all good then, i present, my lentil warriors:
Image

Exo squats always look a bit fed up to me, so i made them happy, apart from one sad dwarf who's squad mate just got shot in half. I made a cyclops out of a single portion jam pot and some pasta, but the pasta fell off :( Let the play testing commence!

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 Post subject: Re: New Squat List: Thurgrimm Stronghold 1.0
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Those Exo-armour Squats look undercooked!!


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