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Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)

 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:36 am 
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StevekCole wrote:
but as the UK meta is more assault orientated the revised warriors and bezerker are too expensive for what you get.


I think they look about right, berserkers are too cheap in the EUK list, 12 units plus a free inspiring character for 200pts is far too good IMO

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Have you playtested them?

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:51 pm 
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yeah had a couple of pastings against the EUK list

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:02 am 
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I've done the maths on UK bezerkers a load of times. They're basically reasonably costed (see other threads) when matched against guard, orks, skitarri etc. Remember, only the hearth guard can shoot so single BM stops them being able to prep. I think UK squats sit just slightly below the top tier armies precisely because of bezerkers and infantry - other than the lack of aircraft (can you imagine them with tbolts) the big weakness is that they have good, but not great assault units. I also think that as a newish army there's just a bit of a shock factor the first few times you play them. Now Mark W and I know each other's dirty squat tricks we find it very hard to beat each other with squats.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:21 pm 
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Bump again. Elsaurio - anything going on with this?

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:08 pm 
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I managed to get in a game this week vs Atension’s Tau, still trying to find time to write the batrep.
Basically ended 0-0 on turn 4, with Tau comfortably winning the tie-breaker on points. (and 3 crucial failed activations late in the game cost him the win)
Atension targeted the Overlords pretty heavily, they both died on turn 1 without achieving anything. My Goliaths and Land Train did decent damage until they got knocked out, and the gyrocopters were useful even with the reduced range on their cannon.
My infantry were next to useless – at least in part because I was significantly out-activated even on turn 1. I was concerned about pushing them too far forward to get Markerlit, Guided Missiled and Crossfired to death. (which eventually happened anyway)
Perhaps the list would do better in the hands of a good player – I’m the first to admit that I’m below average. I’d be interested to know if anyone else is playing this list and how they are faring?


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:38 pm 
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I've played a couple and basically agree with you Taiaha. The war engines are decent, gyros and overlords are good post changes. The core infantry and bezerkers are overcosted (they come in at about 24 points a base which is give or take the same cost as stormboyz or skorchas which they're nowhere near as good as - they should be around the 17/18 point a stand mark) and the upgrade options don't do anything to really rectify this. Thunderfires in infantry cos are fine but a little fiddly.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:07 am 
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You did well, I wouldn't sell yourself short. The first few activations on turn one I thought it was over but you came back and had me on my heels the rest of the game. My list was quite well suited to playing squats as it had so much TK with the Manta, AX-0-1 and the sppaceship. I got extremely lucky on the planetfall placement with the manta and being able to claim intermingled with the zerkers and overlord. Was a bonus I got your SC in the mix too. Not to mention the tied combat resulting in both your formations being wiped out for the loss of 6 firewarriors was just abismal luck. I rolled 20 hits in the first round and another 15 hits in the second due to all the supporting fire. But the proximity really cost me when your land train obliterated the larger firewarrior formation. You did very well at crippling my mobility forcing me to make inefficient activations to try to grab objectives.

The takeaway is definitely that the squat infantry formations are over costed.

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 Post subject: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:51 am 
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Slight repost, some unit costs in here for comparisson. I know like for like comparisons are inexact but just trying to give a flavour of where squat infantry coatings currently sit in the grand scheme of things. On stat lines alone they should sit somewhere between boyz and guardsman - they're currently nowhere near that. Disclaimer alert. The ork boyz costing is pretty rough as hard to pull out exactly.

Stormboyz - 25 points per stand
Skorchas - 25 points per stand
Ork boy & Grot - 25 points (so probably 15 points for a boy?)
Net EA 1.6 Bezerkers & warriors- 24 points per stand (assuming Rhinos at 10 pts each and hearthguard = 50pts)
Dark Eldar warriors - 23.3 points (assuming raiders at 20 points)
Net EA 1.5 Squat Warriors 19.4 pts per model (assuming Rhinos at 10 pts each and hearthguard = 50pts) - a unit everyone thought was too expensive
Epic UK Skitarri Hypaptists 19.4 pts per model (assuming Secutor is 50pts - same as Squat Warlord) - these are 5+ across the board with assault cannons
Epic UK Squat warriors - 16.6 or 15.7 per model (depending on unit upgrades)
Epic UK Bezerkers 15.8pts per model (same assumptions as net ea zerks)
Steel Legion infantry 14.6 pts per model (assuming commander + likelihood of commisar is worth is 75)
Siegemasters 14.6 pts per model (assuming commander + likelihood of commisar is worth is 75)
Guardians 14.2 pts per model (assuming farseer is 50)

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Last edited by StevekCole on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:38 am 
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Dark Eldar Kalabite warriors with no decent ranges weapons compared to squats. They are 6 stands for 200, a Dracon leader for 50 points, and an extra 2 warriors for 50 points a pair. They get a raider transport as part of their cost.

The base formation is 6 warriors and 3 raiders for 200 points. assuming the raider is also 10 points each like a rhino, that make it 29 points a stand. no save, and a single 15cm AP5+ weapon per stand.

Eldar warriors warhosts such a Biel-tan are 150 points for 7 warriors and a farseer. say the Farseer is cheaply costed at 25 points, the guardians are 18 points a stand, and 3 of those stands can have a support weapon as a free replacement. No save, and only C and FF weapons.

Battle sisters from the Ministorum list are 8 sisters and their 4 free rhino transports for 275 points basing the rhinos at 10 points, the cost per sister stand is 30 points a stand which has a 3+ save, the faithful skill and 1 x 30 cm AP5+ heavy bolter per stand.

From what I can see Squats are not expensive for what you get. a 6+ save, and a nice ranged 45cm AP5+/AT6+ weapon. Their upgrades are also quite cheaper compared to some other lists. Except for some armies like Nids, Guard, Renegade Guard, or Orks, most armies are only likely to field the minimum amount of infantry models and bulk their forces out with the formations that give them the better speed or saves, or fire power, or ranged attacks, or perhaps a combination of those.

In my Dark Eldar armies, I normally take Flotillas rather than Syndicates, The Coterie is handy, and the only other infantry formations I normally take are reaver jetbikes or Wyches. Of the other formations - Heavy Barges, Talos, Wraithgates/portable, Razorwings, Barges of Pleasure and Tormentor Titans are the units that I find give you the most for what you pay for.

I tend to run a sian-Hann Eldar list, as I like the fast lighter strike armies like White Scars and Dark Eldar. I do have heavier hitting lists, and even large formation lists like Vraksians, Emperor's Children, a Sister of Battle army , the beginnings of a Dark Mechanicum/Chaos Titan Legions, the start of Orks (Feral and Gargant mob), and lastly Squats.

I think the Squats should get larger formations as a base like the Imperial Guard, and get their rhinos for free. Have a much stronger vehicle that has a better ranged weapon something like a gorgon, or a Squat version of it. This can be a upgrade that replaces the Rhinos, and cost points, but has a 4+ save, and a 20cm move. Perhaps a range 30cm AP5+ weapon at 25 points each. Just and idea, but it would make the Squat infantry get to their objective more intact, and also give them a vehicle they can get protection from.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Fair point.

Guardians I had costed above. Cabalites I'd slightly disagree on costing. Raiders are clearly more expensive than rhinos as are skimmers with lance and disrupt guns, 4+ armour & 5+ ff, (yes they're LVs - though this is less bad for dark eldar as means they can deploy from a webway) plus Kabals are a 1+ activation.

If you say raiders are 20pts each (so less than a chimera for steel legion) that makes the warriors 23 points each. So still cheaper than squat warriors

Compare a cabal to the warrior formation for the same points. Same number of models but the cabal is faster by 5cm, has 3x the shooting (with lance and disrupt), better ff, all the dark eldar goodies (hit and run, march and support fire) vs squats getting 6+ armour and a (the excellent) hearthguard - I know which I'd run every single time.

Anyway, I'm getting slightly lost in a specific comparison. The point was to provide per stand context for the cost of squat warriors and bezerkers. As such, I've added the Kabal and my working to the previous post (but obvs people may feel free to dispute my working). :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Bump again, any movement on this? Has anyone heard from Els?

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Yeah we have just been caught up with Castle Assault here - just finished this weekend.


Feedback has been thin here though - what is the consensus after having a few games under our belts now.


*Troop choices slightly too weak*

This was kind of intentional, to prevent MSU spam and the upgrades were prices slightly cheaper.

I'd shy away from a simple -25pt price drop, as we start getting into spam territory again.

I'd prefer looking as a slight ability bump instead (possibly as a synergy bonus with something else in the list)


*New overlords*

I'm still not 100% settled on the new war balloons. We had one player here sell his Squat army 'because of the overlord nerf'


The tweaks to Gyrocopters seem fine so far


Any other feedback? Please, I'm starved for bat reps.


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 Post subject: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:36 am 
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Nice - sounds like Castle Assault went well. We've played a few games with them. Totally agree don't drop the unit price. I suggest keeping the cost in the 200-250 unit for bez/infantry but bumping up the numbers to avoid MSU spam (so 8/10 bez/inf for 200-250). Much easier than revising the stat lines (especially as that's already happened for several other units). I like the overlord changes. Personally, I'd copy the epic UK gyros as I find them a bit clunky as landspeeder clones.

Got 2 tournaments in Sept (including the European championships) but will try to get some bat reps in afterwards!

Ooh, PS - I've run a 14 activation bezerker spam list with the epic UK list, it's not very good.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:24 am 
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I did end up writing the batrep from Atension and my game a few weeks ago.
http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 84&t=32544
I think the list is pretty close to being respectable without being overpowered.
I'm actually finding the gyro's pretty solid with the new stats and re-introduced spotter rule.
I've tried some of the add-ons to the Brotherhoods but found them mostly underwhelming (adding robots to Berserkers being a possible exception - I've only run that once so far)

The biggest thing I am struggling with is incorporating AA effectively. I typically add AA pintels to Overlords and whatever big WE i'm bringing (Colossus or Land Train) and one or two Thunderfires to Brotherhoods. My Overlords always die quickly and if my Brotherhoods see any serious action the Thunderfires are usually dead or suppressed. I found it much easier with the E-UK list to run a couple dedicated Thunderfire formations.


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