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Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)

 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:16 am 
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Thanks, Taiaha, this is precisely the kind of proofreading that we need.


taiaha wrote:
Hi Elsaurio,
just working through the list to put something together for a playtest. I've got a few questions that hopefully you can answer.
1) Mole - if the Mole is part of the formation that it is transporting, then it will be destroyed for being out of formation as soon as the infantry moves off.
2) Hellbore - in v1.5 it was DC4 and Transport(16). In 1.6 it is DC3 and Transport(10) - is this a typo?
3) Leviathan is listed in the Transport section as being an Independent War Engine (which I assume means it is a separate formation). I think this is a typo since it is also listed in the WE 1/3 - I assume it should be attached as part of the core infantry formation for +300pts, or taken as an independent WE from the WE 1/3 for 325pts.
4) Leviathan currently listed with a bolter array, which you'd planned to remove to match the stats with the Cadian list.


1. The Mole rules are exactly the same as in 1.5, so yes, as per reading of the rules, the Mole is an immobile WE that is destroyed if the infantry leave it.

Why are the rules like this? Well, nobody has made a request for them to be changed, one of the reasons the mole is considered to be a sup par choice. It isn't completely useless - you can surface near an objective with the intention of not moving away.

2. Correct, it is a Typo. I will post an update 1.6.2 to fix this.

3. Hmmmm let me think - I think that the leviathan should be permanently attached to the core formation - else there is no use buying it from the WE section.
The Hellbore? Perhaps it should stay as independent so you can walk away? What do people think? I've never been happy with the Mole/Hellbore.


4. I will check with the Cadian AC to see what we came up with. I probably will have to remove it as the Leviathan has the fighting deck which gives it a serious boost to FF anyway.

Quote:

5) How does the "Fighting Deck" work?
a) Can the units be swapped whenever I like? e.g. if it is transporting (warriors+thunderfire) during an Advance action, I could shoot the Thunderfire, while an Assault, i'd use the warriors.
b) Would Thunderfires provide AA while being transported in the Leviathan?
c) Do the units on the fighting deck take casualties if the Leviathan comes under fire?
d) Do the units on the fighting deck take casualties in an assault?

Thanks!


Ah the fighting deck! Remember it is a brand new addition to the Leviathan so I am eagerly awaiting feedback.
It needs to be tested to see how it works first. I'm going to apply some answers here and we will see how they play out in game. In essence I'm going to come down on the side of the leviathan as I want to encourage it to be used.

a) I'd say at the start of each Leviathan's activation, you choose what units are on the fighting platform. This cannot be changed until the start of the next leviathan's activation. When loading your leviathan up with units, place the 6 you have chosen in a sensible location to remind you (maybe beside the gameboard in a particular spot, or you are keen, bluetack them directly on top of the model).

If this seems strange, remember you have to use a similar convention to decide where to place your infantry when hitching a ride in any other transport in the game.

b) Yes, if it is one of the units that has been chosen to be in the fighting platform.
c & d) No, units on the platform cannot be targeted/killed while the leviathan lives (otherwise there wouldn't be much of a benefit of having the platform at all.)

I'll crosspost this to the cadian section, to see what they think of the idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:39 am 
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RE: How do Moles work?

I just pulled this from the Epic UK list. It isn't by far canon over our own rules but it is an example of the the choices they made.

epicuk wrote wrote:
If you do this then the detachment will enter play using the rules for tunnelling. You may only choose this
option if every unit in the formation is eligible to be transported in Termites or the Moles or Hellebore. Once a
formation has deployed from its tunnellers it is a completely separate formation and may act independently, it
is not tied to the Termites, Moles or Hellebore in any way.

A single transported formation may be split over multiple Moles as an exception to the normal warengine transport rules.

A pair of Moles or a single Hellebore count as independent formations and follow all the normal rules of
immobile war engines. They may activate normally.




So they have the big tunnellers acting independently. Note the inclusion of the formations split over multiple moles, which we will have to include.



What are people's thoughts about making moles and hellbores independent?


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:44 am 
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Hey Ben

The fighting deck works the same as a bunch of other "open topped/fighting decked vehicles" you choose when it's appropriate what is being used from the top. Swap and change as needed.
Treat is similar to the same as Dark Eldar transport where infantry can shoot and FF from the vehicle, just here we are limited to 6 at a time (or 4 in the stormlord)

Secondly, Leviathans can't transport Thunderfires, only infantry (Thunderfires are a AV)


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:00 am 
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Mard wrote:
Hey Ben

The fighting deck works the same as a bunch of other "open topped/fighting decked vehicles" you choose when it's appropriate what is being used from the top. Swap and change as needed.
Treat is similar to the same as Dark Eldar transport where infantry can shoot and FF from the vehicle, just here we are limited to 6 at a time (or 4 in the stormlord)


Quote:

I'm happy to apply guidelines about fighting deck vehicles to match all the other ones in existence. So what are your thoughts on the above questions

a) can swap units at any time?

are units on the fighting decks immune to any damage as I stated?

Quote:
Secondly, Leviathans can't transport Thunderfires, only infantry (Thunderfires are a AV)


I've got this one a few times now, and the Epic rules say nothing about what can be transported in regards to INF/AV etc. In any case the 1.6 Squat list (and squat uk list) are specifically intended to allow transported Thunderfires. Squats can also transport AV robots and LV/AV bikes, as can many other lists (Space Marine AV dreadnoughts in the vanilla list for example)

The fluff justification is that they are actually towed on the outside by Grav-tractors in specially modified Rhinos, but we use ordinary transport rules for simplicity, because nuts to any more special rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:07 am 
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Yes,

But the tested and used Leviathan in Cadians specifically states only 16 INFANTRY stands. So that is where we are coming from.

So you may need to talk about that.
Regardless i'd limit the "squat" leviathan fighting platform to infantry only


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Naming it "Squat Leviathan" handles any differences.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:01 pm 
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Elsaurio wrote:
RE: How do Moles work?

I just pulled this from the Epic UK list. It isn't by far canon over our own rules but it is an example of the the choices they made.

epicuk wrote wrote:
If you do this then the detachment will enter play using the rules for tunnelling. You may only choose this
option if every unit in the formation is eligible to be transported in Termites or the Moles or Hellebore. Once a
formation has deployed from its tunnellers it is a completely separate formation and may act independently, it
is not tied to the Termites, Moles or Hellebore in any way.

A single transported formation may be split over multiple Moles as an exception to the normal warengine transport rules.

A pair of Moles or a single Hellebore count as independent formations and follow all the normal rules of
immobile war engines. They may activate normally.




So they have the big tunnellers acting independently. Note the inclusion of the formations split over multiple moles, which we will have to include.



What are people's thoughts about making moles and hellbores independent?

I think that sounds reasonable, at least for playtesting. I doubt the change is overpowered, or we'd see them popping up more in E-UK lists.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:55 am 
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If you do not limit it to infantry, otherwise Squat players will be using mass leviathans as a slow moving mobile line, advancing up to the center, and then locate their leviathans with their own AA, and leave the units being carried inside with the Thunderfire cannons AA, or 2 x AA in the case of Thunderers as an extra AA gun that can sit in the Leviathans protective Void Shields.

This is another thing that might get spammed and be too powerful. I vote limit the platform to infantry only.

@Mard, they are looking at scrapping the rule that allows infantry to shoot from their transport (Venom, Raider or Barge of Pleasure). The new DE 2017 1.0 list has dropped the rule to allow units to fire from transport. They do not want Wazdakka Mustaffa gang type drive bys, as this will change the way people will use DE. They want DE to be mainly an assault army. Personally I think the rule should be kept. drive bys is the way I play Kalabite warriors mounted in raiders in 40K and Epic, while Incubi, Haemonculi/wracks/Grotesques and Wyches are my assault units.

As to the Hellbore. there would be no reason to purchase it and an AA gun for an extra 25 points if you had to destroy the War Engine once the infantry had moved off. The independent war engine thing makes sense. It is what they had to do with the DE Slave bringer which is currently a dedicated transport/Bomber Independent WE. However with 2017 DE rewrite 1.0, it will be listed with the 1/3 Aircraft section.

Moving them to the precious 1/3 WE section or giving them independent is the only way to not have the Moles, or Hellbore from being destroyed automatically when the infantry leave them.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Deb wrote:
If you do not limit it to infantry, otherwise Squat players will be using mass leviathans as a slow moving mobile line, advancing up to the center, and then locate their leviathans with their own AA, and leave the units being carried inside with the Thunderfire cannons AA, or 2 x AA in the case of Thunderers as an extra AA gun that can sit in the Leviathans protective Void Shields.

This is another thing that might get spammed and be too powerful. I vote limit the platform to infantry only.

If Leviathans are overpowered, then spamming them would be a problem whether they could carry infantry only, or could also carry AVs. Multiple Leviathans means you are either using up a significant part of the WE 1/3 (which could probably be spent on better toys) or are running multiple 500pt formations (core +Leviathan) which impacts activation count.
It's possible that allowing a thunderfire to shoot and provide AA from a fighting deck is overpowered, but Leviathans also come with downsides.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:44 pm 
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We've had the spamming option with leviathans in previous iterations of the list and its never been an issue as they are expensive and slooow. The fighting deck does make the more attractive (especially with thunderers) but lower shield numbers balances that. Key thing is to start play testing.

The UK tunnler change is fine. I've run them in a few games. They still have exactly the same weaknesses (units off board, only coming up on one of two places t&h or blitz, you're strategy rating 2 so your likely to lose tunnlers when they do arrive).

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Strongholds 1.6.1 (Finally!)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:18 am 
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I had a game with a balanced Squat 1.6.1 list vs a balanced DE 2017 ver 1.1 list. DE won hands down, however I forgot to bring in the berserkers via tunnellers until turn 3.

The Squats are hardy, and have decent sized formations. They lack hitting power on non war engine units though. To make up for that, they do have a lot of cheaper War Engines like the Overlord, Goliath, and Tunnelers.

The list I used against each other were:

DE 3000 points – 9 formations, 41 units
wraithgate
50 points
50 points – Portable Wraithgate
1225 points
575 points – Coterie – Archon, 6 Incubi, 2 Warriors, 2 Barge of Pleasure, [BTS]
325 points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers
325 points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers
1025 points
250 points – Reavers – Succubus, 6 Reavers
250 points – Reavers – Succubus, 6 Reavers
250 points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain
275 points – Talos – 5 Talos
700 points
500 Points – Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan
200 Points – Razorwings – 2 Razorwings

VS

List 2 – 3000 Points – 9 Formations, 67 Units
Brotherhood Formations – 900 Points
325 Points – Warrior Brotherhood – 1 x Warlord, 1 x Hearthguard, 9 x Warrior Units, 6 Rhinos
275 Points – Berserker Brotherhood – 1 x Hearthguard, 9 x Berserker Units, 5 x Termites
300 Points – Thunderers – 4 Thunderer Units, 2 Warrior Units, 2 Thunderfires
Support Formations – 1250 points
225 Points – Biker Guild – I x Guildmaster, 3 x Guild Trikes, 4 x Guild Bike Units
225 Points – Biker Guild – I x Guildmaster, 3 x Guild Trikes, 4 x Guild Bike Units
300 Points – Iron Eagle – 6 x Iron Eagle Gyrocopters
500 Points – 2 x Overlord Airships with 1 upgraded with a Flak AA cannon
War Engines – 850 points
550 points – Cyclops + Flak turret + Living Ancestor [BTS]
300 points – 2 Goliath Mega Cannon


I have posted a battle report on this game.

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