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Dust

 Post subject: Dust
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:28 pm 
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In an effort to actually get some gaming in over here, I am forced to try one of the larger, mainstream games. I was ready to give Warmachine a go, but it seemed that no-one plays around here any more. So, it came down to Flames of War (but I am not a fan), 40K or Dust. Since the 40K Codexes are the same price as an entire Dust starter box, Dust it is. I have decided to go Soviet, walker heavy.

So, I am looking for guidance....

- What are the general opinions on the game? Strengths and weaknesses of the system?
- Any links for background, both in game fluff and background to the system as I know there is a reboot of the rules, both 'tactics' and 'warfare', etc. I am not sure of the landscape.
- Any guides on army building, for example the average army size in points, Soviet force restrictions, best core units, general Soviet strengths and weakneses.

Many thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:12 pm 
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out of curiosity what specifically do you dislike about FoW?

apologies for de-railing the thread....

Dust looks interesting, Andy Chambers talks about it a lot on FB

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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:50 pm 
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I don't have any experience with it but the models are fantastic. One thing I find interesting is that you can play a board game or choose a table top wargame instead

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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:34 pm 
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Hi!

I was a HUGE at-43 fan, until rackham went under. Dust is where tat game evolved from.

The rules are made by Andy Chambers and are very good. These were made for the actual minis game. The tactics one is more of a board game in with tiles are used. This was the original manifestation of the game.

My only trepidation is the support FFG is giving it, whether it will last of not. Other than that I think it is a very cool game. It's game play is similar to At-43. So its quick and fun. With a good mix of tactical desiccation without being to cumbersome.

I'd pick it over 40k for sure. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:05 am 
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Thanks for your thoughts, guys.

FoW. I am not sure what it is that doesnt appeal to me. I have never played a game, so it cant be the specific rules engine. I think that I dont like group basing at 15mm. Plus, if a game is dressed as historical, with the setting and 'real' army lists, I think I have a high expectation of it being very 'realistic' - gun x against armour y, etc. The impression I get is that FoW is more game and less simulation than this, but that may be my bias.

FFG - Dust has recently been sold to Battlefront (FoW) which is both a good and a bad thing. Battlefront themselves make GW look super professional at times, but it is now a big fish in a small pond, rather than being a somewhat 'different' game in FFGs range. Plus, there are regular Kickstarters for the next chapter in the game as it evolves, so I have hopes that Battlefront push the game along more.

Edition - I think that this change in ownership means a change in the game too, but this is where my confusion sets in. As far as I can make out, Dust Tactics is getting a new edition soon, with the Warfare rules included in the back of the book, but Warfare wont exist as a separate game. The impression I get is that this new edition is moving it firmly into a wargame with no board and unit cards, just sold pre-assembled and primed. I could be very wrong. I need to get some research done. I think that I will pick up a Soviet starter box and paint it up while I wait for the..... dust (ha!) to settle!

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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:24 am 
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CS, did you see the Kickstarter no on? Opens up the desert front, but there are some unusual details such as marines which look mre like Pacific front types than desert. The KS is also more of a release of expansions in the form of a Kickstarter, rather than a regular KS. Still, I have to admit I was tempted.

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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:14 am 
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Chat to Fattdex as he plays Dust


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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:59 am 
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So, its official. Dust is a mess. Here is what I have been able to make out...

Tactics. This was the original version of the game, and the core system. Its essentially a board game, which makes sense given it was Fantasy Flight.

Warfare. This is an expansion. Essentially, Andy Chambers took the setting and miniatures and made a full wargame with it all. I get the impression that this version has gained a lot of ground and become more popular.

Battlefield. This will be the new version, officially replacing Tactics, but being a full wargame, but also looking more simplified. Official word is that it run alongside Warfare and replace Tactics. General feeling is that Warfare wont be supported eventually as it wont be needed. My concern is that Battlefield will miss the mark for both audiences.

Kickstarter. Thanks for the heads up, vanvlak. Yep, I had seen it. This makes the (I think) fifth Dust expansion. The feeling that I get is that this is a kickstarter because Battlefront essentially dropped the ball and took forever to get things sorted out after Dust was moved to them. Not promising. I considered supporting it, but its not for me. It seems Tactics based with the rules you get, and a general selection. It looks a good bargain, but I dont want the Tactics rules, board sections, etc. I want to play the wargame.

So, I visited my local game shop today to pick up stuff to get started (and, the only real game shop in the country). I was going to get a starter set, but it suffers the same way the Kickstarter does - Tactics rules, a fixed selection. I was going to get a set of cards for the SSU (my faction), but this illustrates why I HATE army cards when an army book makes more sense, and what a mess Dust is in. The cards came out Jan of this year. Some units before this date had Tactics cards, so you need the separate deck. Some had the Warfare cards as well. Then a load of stuff came out after the card deck, so wont be in there! Then there is some stuff that was changed for balance, so the card deck is out of date.

In the end I bought the Dust Warfare rule book and a squad of fve close combat troops that are the core of any SSU army. I figured I could download a set of updated army cards. The minis are a small set so I can check them out. The rule book gives me background, but not on my army. Thats in another book!

But, with the rule book and downloaded cards, I can play the game with any miniatures in the future no matter what direction the rules go in.

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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:03 am 
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Sounds like a crapshoot CS.


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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:30 pm 
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Here's the skinny, and it's not as bad as all that. Explain fully later.

Warfare- This is not going away- all new models are packed with a crad for warfare and a card for tactics 2.0. They have just released retroactive warfare card packs and tactics card packs for all factions old models, so if you are interested in playing ssu warfare, get the Warfare rulebook, get a SSU warfare card pack.

Warfare is my preferred game, there is quite a bit of tactical depth to the command/action/suppression/reaction mechanics and it really scratches that 28mm itch. I appreciate being able to use units right out of the box as my last pitch at making a 40k army, necrons, i was sick to death of spending four hours to assemble ten small or three large models which are essentially monopose. Dust figs are good, you can buy them in the store then frop them on the table, and paint nicely- I have just done head swaps on an allied forcee to make them aussies.

Tactics has just gotten a revised rulebook. I have not played the new edition yet, but i certainly enjoyed playing tactics back in the day. It id fast and bloody to play without ambiguity playing on a grid system for line of sight. Mantics deadzone appears to play a lot like tactics.|

Tactics Battlefield is in the same rulebook as tactics and essentially uses the same system as tactics, gives you a tape measure and removes the grid. The gameplay is an extension/modification of the board game, incorporating a few suppression elements from warfare, but expect it to be faster and bloodier rather than more 'realistic' (as walking tanks can be) than warfare.

So the rights to warfare have passed back to dust studio, but, they can't publish anything that devalues the current stock of books until they have sold out, as FFG still owns the stock. This eans that there will not be a revised edition of the core rulebook for Warfare for a while, and any expansion books fr warfare will be released as a free pdf by battlefront instead of for sale. They can create new content to extend warfare so long as it is free for the period until FFG has run the stock down.
Not the end of the world- still a great game, all units now have handy unit cards that have their full rules and special rules on them, and all new units come with such cards too.

You can use the online platoon building tool to make your warfare platoons- http://dust.mainecoon.net/
You can still buy the warfare core rulebook for $20 and the expansions 10 each as digital editions if you prefer (i do) http://www.wargamevault.com/browse.php? ... from=&pto=
One of those expansions had a neat campaign system, may have been hades.

You don't need any special templates to play warfare, but markers are good to denote suppression, damage etc. These are alright http://www.litko.net/products/LITKO-tok ... 5RyhSgVdHU
There are official GF9 ones coming soon too.

So yeah- chuck out old tactics cards, either get the new warfare deck or get the rules expansions. There is a free stat sheet that has all of the units on it here http://dust-devils.com/dee-dees-game-su ... re-support

Just download everything there and you will find what you need to play.


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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:47 pm 
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Soviets- the fakyeli are gold with their chem flamers and shotguns. Yakov character is gold, an extra flamer and adds an extra point of cover. You can use a commissar to join two units in ssu. So you could have two fakyeli, yakov and a commisar form a 12 strong close quarter unit that gets bonus cover.
Ssu attack helicopters are great. Ssu walker with grenade weapons is great. If you can manage to get him airlifted to the rear of the enemy lines, the airlfted walker with anti tank weapons is brutal (aa rear shot on a walker halves its armour).
The armour 4 ssu veterans are also great, check out their sniper team. I also really like the artillery yractors for ssu. Tbh, there is not much I dont like about them. You can play a good infantry horde, you can go heavy infanyry, the mao zedong is one of the best tanks in the game. Ssu do not have a walker only platoon yet in warfare so if that is something you really want to do in warfare, the red guards platoon lets you take more walkers than usual.


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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:19 am 
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Thats fantastic. Many thanks for the clarifications and guidance.

Did the sets that were released before the card deck, include Warfare cards? For example, if I buy the card deck and then get a unit that comes with a Warfare card, will it duplicate, replace or be replaced by the one in the dedicated card deck?

I am still confused about the army list structure, although I suspect that is a) because I have not read the rules yet, and b) because its a lot more open than I am used to. I really should get a copy of the SSU list and the SSU Warfare cards next, I think. I have the core rule book as a starter (I prefer dead tree versions where I can get them). But, do I need the army list? If there is the online army builder, and I get the card deck for the stats, what extra is in the book? (I will get it eventually, but does it need to be a priority purchase?) I had a pack of the cards in my hand in the store, but put them back as they seems to be replaced by the online list builder, and potentially out of date.

I am also heading more towards Warfare than either of the other two versions of the game. I have to be honest that it wouldnt be my first choice 28mm game (Defiance: Vital Ground.... but no-one plays that) but it has a mix of historical and scifi that appeals to me, and the store is about to give the game a real push, so it will at least get me introduced to the local players. I do wonder about the infantry minis for it.... I am considering replacing my infantry with GW IG and using the official walkers and vehicles. Building the stuff is one of the things that I like the most, to be honest.

So, it sounds like Warfare is a time bomb right now. I assume that as soon as stock is all gone from FFG, new editions and updates will come out pretty fast, and no-one knows exactly when that will be. Many thanks for the online links. I found the army builder, but the others are new to me.

I picked up a squad of Fakyeli to have a look at (they are not assembled, I need to glue their packs on!.. Since they are still pre-undercoated, I assume that superglue is the way forwards for this).

I would love to grab that air-dropped walker, of the one with the twin 88s, but neither were in my store last weekend. What would you suggest as my second purchase? KV-47 seemed like a solid choice, or another Fakyeli squad or a rifle squad.

I was going to go walker heavy, with Fakyeli supporting, and auxiliary heavy infantry teams. Seems like that would look pretty cool and should work reasonably well.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:37 am 
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When building a platoon (using the online tool), you pick a platoon type, then choose hq section (which may be an individual hero if that is allowed) and a 1st section, from the drop down lists. for every two sections (which you now have) you may take a support section, which is usually a vehicle. Using certain selections as your hq will grant you the ability to take a bonus upgrade section, typically a sniper or mortar team or whatever.

If you add another two sections (which can be any selection out of sections 2-4, you don't have to take a second then a third then a 4th section), you can then take another support section. So your typical platoon build will be a comand unit section, 3 trooop sections, two walkers, and a speial support like a sniper.

Several platoons mix that up however, like the aforementioned red platoon. How to build your platoons is covered in the main rulebook, the same theory applies to any of the other sections you will find in the online builder tool, you can just explore them.

If you happen to buy a box of models that has a Dust Warfare card already in it, that is a new model and that card is current- because the older models were not packed with cards for warfare.

If they are packeed with cards for tactics, you can tell if they are old cards because they will be a lot larger, looking like these

Image

and the neew ones are in this format ImageImage

The warfare cards look a lot like the above tactics cards ^ but the point values will be roughly triple, and it will be marked as for warfare.

I forgot before, the new tactics rulebook is available to download fro free ffrom the following links:

http://www.gf9-dnd.com/Docs/Dust/DTR.pdf
http://www.gf9-dnd.com/Docs/Dust/DTBattlefield.pdf
http://www.gf9-dnd.com/Docs/Dust/DTsr.pdf

There is a lot of stuff to read about tactics, modleing and new products via http://www.dust-tactics.com/home.aspx


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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:10 am 
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Here is a sample force

http://dust.mainecoon.net/#NFcJOjGm90+h ... puVbiqj+BA


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 Post subject: Re: Dust
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:17 pm 
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Fantastic, thanks. Thats all a lot clearer now. Is 300 an average game size? A small game? And, is two platoons at that level 'about right', so one every 150 (approx)?

So, recall that yesterday I went to my OLGS (only local gaming store) with the intention of picking up the SSU Warfare card deck... but got side tracked. So, I was back today, with the same intention... and the same result. It turned out that they had the Zverograd book in, which has the SSU army list. So, working on the basis that with only one squad of 'unpainted' minis, a gaming aide was not so useful but the background and details on the army and units was, and the book came home with me.

This means that, in two days I have picked up the Warfare core rules, the Zverograd suppliment to now give me all three force lists, half a dozen paints and a box of Fakyeli close assault troops. Thats £80 of gaming budget gone, and my lot for at least a couple of weeks. But now, all I really need to get started at a minimum level are some more paints, the SSU card deck and a few more minis. All relatively cheap purchases.

I also downloaded a load of stuff at work today!
And, I am sure that I read somewhere that there was a set of cards that coukd be downloaded from somewhere, kept up,to date by a fan... or did I dream that?

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