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Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)

 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:40 am 
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I like the idea of a 75 point inspiring librarian.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:40 pm 
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The key is to make Inspiring a real choice. Especially since you already have a sunk 25 points’ cost in a captain in every grey knight formation. Inspiring for +25 is a no-brainer for at least two formations. Upping it to +50 makes it a real choice. I could see myself using one. Two would be at the expense of something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Fredmans makes a good point.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:50 pm 
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fredmans wrote:
The key is to make Inspiring a real choice. Especially since you already have a sunk 25 points’ cost in a captain in every grey knight formation. Inspiring for +25 is a no-brainer for at least two formations. Upping it to +50 makes it a real choice. I could see myself using one. Two would be at the expense of something else.

/Fredmans


I see what you're saying and your concerns. The way that I'm viewing this point cost is that 25 of the 50 points for a chaplain/lib is already invested in the formation via the Captain. Making the chaplain/lib CH upgrade an additional 50 points really pushes their total cost up to 75 pts, since you have a 25 pt "tax" built into the formation. The army has already paid half of the cost of that CH upgrade in the formation itself, which restricts the overall activations the army can achieve.

To compare to other lists, standard marines get a 6 stand tactical formation for 275, no character upgrades. For 50 points, you can add the cpt/lib/chaplain. Space Wolves may be a better comparison since they have characters built into the core formation similar to grey knights. They can swap out the CH upgrade at the same cost.

If there's concerns about the 25 pt upgrade, maybe we should look to pull the half off included cpt from the formations, and revert back to the full 50pts for any CH, cpt/lib/chaplain.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:56 pm 
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And then no Librarians will be taken ever again in a army that fluffwise has alot of Librarians in their ranks. I can see that as a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:46 am 
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mordoten wrote:
And then no Librarians will be taken ever again in a army that fluffwise has alot of Librarians in their ranks. I can see that as a problem.
I've reviewed the 2017 codex. While the grey knights all have latent psychic abilities, I don't see a reference to them having an exceptional number of librarians or a limited number of chaplains. If there's a reference I've overlooked, please let me know and I'll be happy to review it and reconsider. I'm sure that I've by no means reviewed every reference to grey knights in all GW/FW/Black library literature. But I am committed to sticking to the most recent iteration of the GKs based on how the list works with a heavy GK presence and the new units that are available.

Librarians are a bit of an odd bird in all marine lists, not providing the tech of the cpt or chaplain in exchange for a MW FF and I think we have the same problem here. But I currently don't see that as a reason to limit them as an option to list builders. I've seen reference to Cpts being assigned to all forces but nothing indicating there should be forced restrictions in list building to incentivize librarians.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:17 am 
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While it is true that librarians are new to the background, the whole idea of Grey Knights are centered upon psychic mastery.

Codex Daemonhunters:

Every Grey Knight recruit is an emergent psyker. Grey Knight units have access to psychic abilities. There are no chaplains, nor Librarians. Everyone is pure, untainted, and psychic. Grey Knight Heroes (HQ) have access to psychic abilities, as do Terminators (Holocaust)

Codex Grey Knights

Units of Grey Knights are psykers.

Brother Captains are psykers.

Grand Masters are psykers.

Librarians are introduced, as teachers of psychic abilities during training and fight on the battle field.

Brotherhood Champions are introduced as blade master psykers.


Until now, there has been no previous mention of chaplains. While there are no super incentive to focus on librarians either, I find it emblematic that no previous army champion has tried to include chaplains. By not using them, you differentiate them from codex astartes and other variants. There is ample opportunity to do so. Call anything Grey Knight ... and you could argue other stats and abilities. The limitations of regular librarians (which is a problem in all other Marine lists) need not apply. Go for something else.

My initial preference would be to restrict characters to

Brother Captain (included)
Librarian Inspiring, and Smite: +50

I like captains being included. It makes the list hard to min-max with all those 25 points embedded. You will be hard pressed for activation advantage and having those captains makes you use them as such. Besides, it gives the army an elite feel.

Given the nature of the list, there would be too much incentive to maximize output on your expensive hammers by adding standard chaplains. Your alpha strike has to hit home.

You could achieve similar effect as Inspiring by enhancing Smite. Call it Banish or Holocaust and make it a TK attack. That is an almost certain +1. If it would be too powerful, since there are very good units to carry the attack, make it a CC extra attack. These guys are supposed to go toe to toe with Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes after all.

As aleays, these are just thoughts and suggestions, and if you add chaplains after all, I will just model them as Librarians or Masters anyway. I primarily think adding chaplains is a wasted opportunity to do something else. Why are we including them? The newest design idea of GW is to make mixing and allying easier. Put what you want on the table. We as a dead game community are not succumbing to that design concept, but try to create ”pure” variant lists. It makes sense under the current 40K arch-concept to add techmarines and chaplains to grey knights. Everyone can field knights, because GW makes more money if everyone fields it. Are we including chaplains in this list to enhance the alpha strike? If so, are we making them further one-dimensional?

Kindly,
Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:58 am 
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New Grey Knights 2.0 List posted: viewtopic.php?f=130&t=33750

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