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Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be cool

 Post subject: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be cool
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:27 am 
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So probably opening up for a world of hurt here, but with the release of the EpikUK Sisters list I thought I'd just share my thoughts and draft of an EpicAU list variant of the Sisters of Battle.
I've played with the NetEA list about 7 times now and have written this up as a variant that takes the list to more of a 40k 8th edition feel rather then a withhunters 3rd edition.

I'm also adding in the changelog and quick thought process on some of the decisions an would love to have some tasteful discourse with you all on thoughts , chages etc. (though also point out the spelling mistakes and stats etc)


The list is mainly built around a full army of Sisters, with small Inq support and Knightly crusaders out on campaign

Changelog #1: Hereticus Inquisitor change to Inquistor (We work with all Ordos)
Deathcult Assassin change to 0-2 upgrade choice, given First Strike
Pennitent Engine speed increase to 20cm (With the addition of movement values returning
to 40k, Pennitent engines are faster than INF)
Intentionally left out Immolator Sanctis model. Twin Heavy bolters only stated at 30cm
AP4+, Immolation flamers better all around
Repressors and Immolators changed permaently to be just represented by their Extra
armor variant. Repressors now have a place as more protected transports then Rhinos
Inquisitorial Chimera and Inquisitorial Valkyrie changed to Chimera and Valkyrie (No
different then standard counterparts)
REMOVED Crusdaer/Redemptionists choice (Cheap rable inf, much like cultists)
REMOVED All upgrades for Redeptionists (Civilian Vehicles)
REMOVED Inquistorial Support Staff/ Veteran Warriors (too much customization for what
should be straight forward at epic scale and helps remove bloat)
REMOVED Aquilla Lander and Arvus Lighter (All fluff points to these being civilian/small
navy craft - not needed with Valkeries in list and helps remove bloat)
Living Saint Added - Current fluff supports Celestine as more a less a Daemon of the
Emperor at this point. Stated off the Daemon Prince this is a 0-1 choice upgrade for the
army with some changes.
Knight Archeron and Castigator added - Some fast moving WE support with staying power
that still stays true to the ideas of SoB (Bolter, Melta and Flamer). 300 points for unit of
three? Knight Shields, no upgrades to leader etc
REMOVED Emperor's Chapel (No real theme for DC3 Superheavy Tank.)
Updated Cathedral of Purification. Changed range on Promethium Cannon, changed
Inferno Cannon to match Immolation flamer, removed Heavy Bolter

Also the warlod titan listed? After the include of a variant of the warlord for Imperial Fists, I'm interested in seeing variants appear in other lists. Currently not enamored with the loadout, would be happy to change it up but would like to explore the option of the Devotion Bell returning to epic. BEcause nothing screams a war of faith more than that..... just trying to make it make sense and do something interesting.



So yeah, please comment, constructively criticize etc

List:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7lrp ... 0V3NlNkM28

Stats:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7lrp ... GhJNjZLU0E


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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:39 am 
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Cursory glance-over: f*** yeah! Of all the SoB lists I've seen, this one makes me want to play them.

I'll definitely give it a more thorough look soon, but a few initial impressions:
- Agree with everything you dropped. You could probably also drop the Purgeance formation; a formation made entirely of transports seems a bit odd
- Like the changes to the Penitent Engines, Death Cult Assassins
- Love the Living Saint! She should probably get an Invulnerable save though.
- other than lacking Bravery (which is a pretty big hit) the Knights seem like they should be more on par with Errants than Paladins, pricewise. I'd add Bravery back onto them and bump the formation to 325.
- Retinue upgrade should be re-worded to "Replace 0-2 Storm Troopers with Death Cult Assassins" and probably re-named
- Good luck coming up with an idea for the Warlord; it does seem like a very fun concept that could add a neat twist
- Is it intentional that the Hunter is quite a bit cheaper here than for the Marines? If yes, I assume it's mostly the lack of ATSKNF?


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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:18 am 
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I don't knot much fluff wise about SoB, but having a living saint stated like a demon prince sounds neat.

*Edit having read some fluff: another option could be to run the saint like.an eldar avatar

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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:25 am 
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Your Dominions don't have Scout, this is intentional?

While I like the living saint isn't it ONLY Celestine at this point in time so there's really only one of them in the entire Imperium?

Hunters are now available outside of the vehicle only formations, adds flexibility but potentially increases the ability to spam them across the table and create serious ground AA bubbles. It also increases the 'reach out and place a BM' range of most of the core formations by adding one. Intentional?

Penitents at 20cm means they can no longer garrison (actually very little in the army can without sacrificing thier transports to do it). That kind of hurts because one of their handy uses in the previous version was to garrison forward and murder enemy scouts using walker+infiltrate to get CC or to unload their 2x AP4+, IC heavy flamers into something generally pretty squishy. The arco flaggellants can do this now (and kind of have to as they have no transports) but they are CC only so are very easy to position around if they drop first as one of your only garrisons.

One thing that has bugged me about the Repressors and Immolators is that they cost the same but due to the way transports are added to add the minimum possible the 25pts for an immolator ADDS a model to the formation while the repressor SWAPS a model in the formation. If you're not replacing the entire transport contingent for repressors there's little point as the range is shorter than the immolator and you can't exploit walker as much if it's the only one that can go through terrain as safely.

What use do you see for the Retributors with 2xHeavy Bolters? Traditionally they're used to drive into FF support range, place a BM and add 6x3+ FF to whoever engages the target. Often this means doubling. Infantry are almost always in cover. So much of the time they hit on 7s with their HBs and do essentially nothing with them except place the BM. They used to have Heavy Flamers which synergised well with this role (same 15cm range, IC essentially counteracts the penalty for doubling) so they'd be hitting on 4s, -1 for doubling so 5s, most infantry are in cover so cancelled out by IC thus 12 shots on 5s so 1/3 hit for 4 hits. Most things are 5+ save so 1-2 saved, then firefight support n an engagement. With HBs I always feel that I'd be better off taking another Mission for 25pts more.


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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:35 am 
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looks good to me, I'm not really in the know about soB, but there are plenty of options. Are the cerastus knights still relatively common in 40k? I was under the impression they are a heresy unit? (I'd have thought knight errants with their meltaguns fit the theme just as well)

Also are the lightnings meant to have 4 shots each? (2x lascannon, 2x underwing rockets) that's a pretty fantastic amount of AT shooting for 150pts

maybe norto can knock up the list for the EpicAU section on armyforge sometime to make it easy to play around with list builds etc

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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Devotional Bell - the easy version would be for it to give Inspiring and maybe Leader to the Titan, but given how it's supposed to benefit other formations, how about it counting as Inspiring for any assault that it could provide Supporting Fire to?

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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:04 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
Devotional Bell - the easy version would be for it to give Inspiring and maybe Leader to the Titan, but given how it's supposed to benefit other formations, how about it counting as Inspiring for any assault that it could provide Supporting Fire to?


or maybe giving a +1 bonus to rally within 15cm? then you won't have the faff with support not counting if all units in range are wiped out etc.....

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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:57 pm 
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That would also fit really well.

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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:37 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
or maybe giving a +1 bonus to rally within 15cm? then you won't have the faff with support not counting if all units in range are wiped out etc.....


Simple: check
Fluffy: check
Useful: check

Love this idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:40 pm 
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Interesting. Apart from what Scutarii and Kyussinchains said i would add:

- In general it looks like the power of the list has grown and the deleted parts not enough to cover what has been powered up.
- Good idea with removing the DC3 vehicle. It was a bit redundant.
- Good fluffy Titan loadout. I also prefer Kyussinchains idea for the Bell.
- Haven't checked the fluff, but it seems that removing both Aquilla Lander and Arvus Lighter was a good move.
- Agree on the removal of the Inquisitorial part for the Valkyries and Chimaeras.
- Inquisitorial Warband doesn't sound well or suits what they are, and would do more with Orks or Kroot. How about Inquisitorial Strike Force? Same with Retinue upgrade for Assassins.
- Assassins weapon should be renamed so there isn't two weapons with the same name and different stats. Another reason is because Power Weapons are supposed to be slow ones. Third for giving them a more suited and fluff oriented name.
- Don't like the removal of Redemptionists, as they were as fluffy as the Inquisitors. Limiting them in any way would be better.
- I think that 3 different types War Engines (Knights, Inquisitorial ones (cathedral) and Titans) is too much variety for an army that doesn't have them as focus, theme or fluff. It is not that i think that three big units is too much, but having three completely different types of big guys in both fluff, role and type of is. I would go with Cathedral as it fits the most the army both fluff and role and if you want more, another Inquisitorial big guy or a Titan.
- While i like the idea of increasing the range of the Cathedral and the desire for alpha strikes like weapons in such a list, there is reasons it was like that: for example it is very powerful for this army and stands out too much gameplay wise: range 60cm or lower the power to 2BP would still let the unit has a distinct role in the army without changing too much the enemy's strategy.

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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:39 am 
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And thus begins the long line of responses :)
Cheers all who have read and commented so far

NoisyAssassin wrote:
Cursory glance-over: f*** yeah! Of all the SoB lists I've seen, this one makes me want to play them.


Cheers, I've still tried to stick with the theme. I've been playing SoB since 2nd ed so I'm trying to do them justice

NoisyAssassin wrote:
I'll definitely give it a more thorough look soon, but a few initial impressions:
- Agree with everything you dropped. You could probably also drop the Purgeance formation; a formation made entirely of transports seems a bit odd


I quite like the purgeance formation. It's similar to the Hellhound formation in the Cadian list (Which I've used exstensivley and love) but gives you the option of taking
5 Flammer turrets and 1 Melta turret for a good anti RA option. They are still listed with the transport option so you can still take them with left over points to bump your units up.

NoisyAssassin wrote:
- Love the Living Saint! She should probably get an Invulnerable save though.


Yes, this was an oversight on my behalf

NoisyAssassin wrote:
- other than lacking Bravery (which is a pretty big hit) the Knights seem like they should be more on par with Errants than Paladins, pricewise. I'd add Bravery back onto them and bump the formation to 325.

I'm real keen to get the points value and these Knihts just right in the list.

Originally i was thinking of adding in the Warhound and Reaver with different weapon loadouts, but some have theses models and no rules for them outside of 30k. Plus they make nice centrepiece WE's that fit a crusading feel


NoisyAssassin wrote:
- Retinue upgrade should be re-worded to "Replace 0-2 Storm Troopers with Death Cult Assassins" and probably re-named


Yes I will add this to my change list for 1.1
NoisyAssassin wrote:
- Good luck coming up with an idea for the Warlord; it does seem like a very fun concept that could add a neat twist


Thanks, it'll be hard to wrangle, but he's not critical for the list - just a bit of fun
NoisyAssassin wrote:
- Is it intentional that the Hunter is quite a bit cheaper here than for the Marines? If yes, I assume it's mostly the lack of ATSKNF?

Yep, you've hit it on the head

Apocolocyntosis wrote:
I don't knot much fluff wise about SoB, but having a living saint stated like a demon prince sounds neat.

*Edit having read some fluff: another option could be to run the saint like.an eldar avatar


Cheers, this was discussed as well as a 1 turn drop. But we decided she fit better as similar to the daemon prince


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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:19 am 
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Replies round 2!

Scutarii wrote:
Your Dominions don't have Scout, this is intentional?


Nope, one of those oversights. Adding into v2 changelog


Scutarii wrote:
While I like the living saint isn't it ONLY Celestine at this point in time so there's really only one of them in the entire Imperium?

Yes, though she's reported at being seen in battle thousands of light years appart and apearing and dissapering constanly. We've left her named as the "living Saint" so the army can be "your dudes" if you want her named or themed differently


Scutarii wrote:
Hunters are now available outside of the vehicle only formations, adds flexibility but potentially increases the ability to spam them across the table and create serious ground AA bubbles. It also increases the 'reach out and place a BM' range of most of the core formations by adding one. Intentional?

Yes, this was intentional. Though it can be removed from the dominion squad. It was mainly a choice to add them to the Normal Battle sisters and then the Retribution heavy weapon Sisters
But this is good, this is what I need you guys to point out

Scutarii wrote:
Penitents at 20cm means they can no longer garrison (actually very little in the army can without sacrificing thier transports to do it). That kind of hurts because one of their handy uses in the previous version was to garrison forward and murder enemy scouts using walker+infiltrate to get CC or to unload their 2x AP4+, IC heavy flamers into something generally pretty squishy. The arco flaggellants can do this now (and kind of have to as they have no transports) but they are CC only so are very easy to position around if they drop first as one of your only garrisons.

Ahh see, i overlooked this when I gave them the speed buff, After playing the NetEA list a lot I found the 15cm just a bit slow, even with garrisoning. But I don't feel they should have scout.
Good catch, let's get them back to 15cm

Scutarii wrote:
One thing that has bugged me about the Repressors and Immolators is that they cost the same but due to the way transports are added to add the minimum possible the 25pts for an immolator ADDS a model to the formation while the repressor SWAPS a model in the formation. If you're not replacing the entire transport contingent for repressors there's little point as the range is shorter than the immolator and you can't exploit walker as much if it's the only one that can go through terrain as safely.

Good catch. After reflecting I'm thinking of limiting the Immolators to only be avaible as an upgrade for Domminons and possibly Repentia. And leave the repressors for the other formations. Thoughts?

Scutarii wrote:
What use do you see for the Retributors with 2xHeavy Bolters? Traditionally they're used to drive into FF support range, place a BM and add 6x3+ FF to whoever engages the target. Often this means doubling. Infantry are almost always in cover. So much of the time they hit on 7s with their HBs and do essentially nothing with them except place the BM. They used to have Heavy Flamers which synergised well with this role (same 15cm range, IC essentially counteracts the penalty for doubling) so they'd be hitting on 4s, -1 for doubling so 5s, most infantry are in cover so cancelled out by IC thus 12 shots on 5s so 1/3 hit for 4 hits. Most things are 5+ save so 1-2 saved, then firefight support n an engagement. With HBs I always feel that I'd be better off taking another Mission for 25pts more.


I've followed the loadout conventions the same as the NetEA list and now the EpicUK list. Also in normal 40k its the general loadout for Retributors. But I'm the same as you, I'd rather just take more Mission formations and have struggled with what to do witht he Retributors.
One idea is to scrap the full formation and include them as a 0-2 swap for some normal sisters in the formation to allow the Mission to reach out further and place BM's Thoughts?

kyussinchains wrote:
looks good to me, I'm not really in the know about soB, but there are plenty of options. Are the cerastus knights still relatively common in 40k? I was under the impression they are a heresy unit? (I'd have thought knight errants with their meltaguns fit the theme just as well)

All FW is still fairly common now days, and It's just a personal choice of seeing them in there as nice models that need a home in a list. Plus i believe they fit the crusading theme

kyussinchains wrote:
Also are the lightnings meant to have 4 shots each? (2x lascannon, 2x underwing rockets) that's a pretty fantastic amount of AT shooting for 150pts

Nope, my bad. Just the 1x lascannon, 2x underwing rockets

kyussinchains wrote:
maybe norto can knock up the list for the EpicAU section on armyforge sometime to make it easy to play around with list builds etc

Pretty sure he would if I asked him, that boy loves his epic


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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:28 am 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
Devotional Bell - the easy version would be for it to give Inspiring and maybe Leader to the Titan, but given how it's supposed to benefit other formations, how about it counting as Inspiring for any assault that it could provide Supporting Fire to?


NoisyAssassin wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
or maybe giving a +1 bonus to rally within 15cm? then you won't have the faff with support not counting if all units in range are wiped out etc.....


Simple: check
Fluffy: check
Useful: check

Love this idea.


My original idea was +1 inspiring to all units within 45cm.... though that might be a bit of a stretch
The big boy is not critical to the list, just something I kind of liked the idea of.
How would you point cost him though? He's going to be far less killy with losing 2 weapon slots on top. What other armaments would you think would be good for the main 2 amrs?


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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:45 am 
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And round 3

Abetillo wrote:
Interesting. Apart from what Scutarii and Kyussinchains said i would add:

- In general it looks like the power of the list has grown and the deleted parts not enough to cover what has been powered up.

The list needs it, I've played it hard and it needs some kind of boost. Though happy to look at what we can weaken

Abetillo wrote:
- Good idea with removing the DC3 vehicle. It was a bit redundant.

I always thought so, it just didn't seem to do anything. But i added the Knights because Epic lists should have War engines and knights fit the crusding theme.


Abetillo wrote:
- Good fluffy Titan loadout. I also prefer Kyussinchains idea for the Bell.

Cheers, It's now down to how to make it useful and worth it's points. Losing two weapons is still a big dip in power to a warlord regardless of the rally/inspiring buff

Abetillo wrote:
- Haven't checked the fluff, but it seems that removing both Aquilla Lander and Arvus Lighter was a good move.

Thanks, they are mainly civilian and/or small planetary govenor vehicles. Maybe SoB will get a flier of their own if it's ever released in plastic. But for now they serve no purpose where Valks will do

Abetillo wrote:
- Agree on the removal of the Inquisitorial part for the Valkyries and Chimaeras.
- Inquisitorial Warband doesn't sound well or suits what they are, and would do more with Orks or Kroot. How about Inquisitorial Strike Force? Same with Retinue upgrade for Assassins.

Cheers again. Ahhh yep, name change in nice and easy

Abetillo wrote:
- Assassins weapon should be renamed so there isn't two weapons with the same name and different stats. Another reason is because Power Weapons are supposed to be slow ones. Third for giving them a more suited and fluff oriented name.

Caaaaan do

Abetillo wrote:
- Don't like the removal of Redemptionists, as they were as fluffy as the Inquisitors. Limiting them in any way would be better.

This list is no way means to replace the NetEA or EpicUK list. Just a SoB force on crusade with just their elements and not the civilian rabble. They will always be available in the other lists, I just wanted to tackle this from a different angle/theme and keeping them was causing a bit of bloat in this list

Abetillo wrote:
- I think that 3 different types War Engines (Knights, Inquisitorial ones (cathedral) and Titans) is too much variety for an army that doesn't have them as focus, theme or fluff. It is not that i think that three big units is too much, but having three completely different types of big guys in both fluff, role and type of is. I would go with Cathedral as it fits the most the army both fluff and role and if you want more, another Inquisitorial big guy or a Titan.

If it came down that this is a major contention for most people, I would drop the warlord. Keep the cathedarl for those that people have built and converted (and use as a HQ/Command model) and the Knights for the Crusading theme

Abetillo wrote:
- While i like the idea of increasing the range of the Cathedral and the desire for alpha strikes like weapons in such a list, there is reasons it was like that: for example it is very powerful for this army and stands out too much gameplay wise: range 60cm or lower the power to 2BP would still let the unit has a distinct role in the army without changing too much the enemy's strategy.

I've stated this simnilar to the Cadian/Squat Leviathan and while taking away some of the lascannons and battle cannon to make it more themed with cleaning large uprising and corruption. With that I've upped the main cannon to 4bp.
It's also not going to be common you'll have alpha strike ability with the SoB strat rating. Plus it's one of the few weapons in the list that can really reach out and tough the enemy. It also still require LoS, has no Indeirect, so will still have to move and shoot.




Thanks for everyone's comments so far. I'll try and update the list tonight to v1.1 But so far the changes we are looking at are:

Changelog #2
- Add Invulnerable save to to Living Sait
- Discuss adition of knight "bravery" rule bumb up to 325 if added
- GET SOME LINES IN TEH STATS SO IT'S EASIER TO READ
- Reword Retinue to "Assassin" - "Replace 0-2 Storm Troopers with Death Cult Assassins"
- Re-add missing scout rule for dominions
- Remove Hunter upgarde from Dominions
- Pennitents back to 15cm move
- Changes to Transport. Immolator upgrade now just for Domminons and Repentia formations (New upgrade name to be decided) Repressors for Mission and Retribution formations
- Look at reasons to take Retributors? SHould we just drop the formation and make them a 0-2 swap in the mission for some HB options?0
- Fix Lightning errors to bring in line with EpicUK/NetEA
- Inquisitorial Warband renamed to Inquisitorial Strike Force
- Change assassin power weapon name to _____________ something sinister :P


Thanks for the input, let's keep the discussion rolling


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 Post subject: Re: Adepta Soroitas EpicAU Draft 1.0: It's early days -be
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Mard wrote:
My original idea was +1 inspiring to all units within 45cm.... though that might be a bit of a stretch
The big boy is not critical to the list, just something I kind of liked the idea of.
How would you point cost him though? He's going to be far less killy with losing 2 weapon slots on top. What other armaments would you think would be good for the main 2 amrs?

My original idea for ranged Inspiring/Leader was a fixed distance but I thought changing it to supporting units made it less powerful.

A fixed distance would be much easier in game terms, but 45cm is a huge bubble. >:D

Flame weapons would be the obvious choice for the arms, but means that it's even less killy outside of short range. :(

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