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Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)

 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:27 pm 
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As interesting as it may be, I prefer the current rule over the teleport homer. It is simpler and more flexible, a trait that fits the teleport mastery concept. Less fiddly, and better. I do not think it is abusive, much thanks to the link to the spacecraft. If it is something that can be abused, I would rather see it fixed by points cost increase to the soace craft. To be honest, I think sometimes fiddly special rules forget to zoom out to a higher level of abstraction.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:02 pm 
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I agree that it is easier, and in certain situations it is certainly more powerful as you can get a really nasty formation pretty much exactly where you want it, when you want it, and quite likely with no blast markers.

I'll continue with the Dark Angels version, as I think it is closer to the Dark Angels fluff, how the E-UK rule operates, and how the Teleport Homer actually works. There's got to be something on the ground that the Terminators home in on.

I also think it creates more flexibility, as the Terminators that are set up in the space ship can teleport in normally as well, and can then benefit from the teleport homer. This makes them more unpredictable for the opponent. If I understand it correctly, in the Grey Knights version they must come down at the same time as the space ship comes in, and can't do it any other time?

That being said maybe the Grey Knights version could be called something else? Advanced Teleport Chambers perhaps? In the fluff their Strike Cruisers got access to better tech than other Space Marine Chapters. Maybe this could be said to reflect that instead?

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:38 am 
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Hey guys,

I had a look at the Dark Angels one, I'm pretty keen to keep it simple as its set up now. Happy to change the name in the next update.

The teleport bonus is for the same turn the cruiser arrives. As for power of getting the formations in the right place with out blasts. Turn 1 is usually the best turn for a strike cruiser to hit. Also its the easiest time for most list to set up a scout screen against it. I'm hoping myself and others to get some more games in with it to try it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:53 pm 
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Totally on board with this, and I'm happy that others are working on alternative teleport rules for Space Marines, as the basic start-of-turn Teleport usually isn't good enough compared to bussing stuff around in Thunderhawks.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Hey Norto,

Played a 2000pt a side, three way game with the knights a week ago. It was my first time taking them to the table. It felt very similar to Marines, but the ability to have so much teleporting definitely gives the list it's own feel. The small formation sizes offset this flexibility though, meaning they break that much easier coming out of an engagement with losses.

I really enjoy interceptor formations with two dreadknights added. They provide cover for the Marines, add some longer ranged shooting, and add some nice RA 4+ and MW in engagements. Despite the interceptors dying, the dreadknights survived most of the game, making well above their statistical amount of saves.

I have an air assault/teleporting alpha strike list I'm aiming to try later this month. Is there any other unit or combination that you'd like feedback on if I end up having time for a second game?

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:25 am 
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Hey gunslinger,

Ive only played a handful of games myself. But the interceptors seem like a good buy with dreadknights. They are probably the focus to try out. Also maybe dreadknights in pods and landing crafts.

Really just need some games and some opinions of if they are fun to play with/against.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:00 pm 
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Got a game in this weekend at the club, Grey Knights v Knight World. Bit of a tricky match up with all the MW and Knight shields, but the Grey Knights pulled off a turn four W on points, about 1100 to 1500.

Knight World was something like:
Paladin x 5 + Senaschal
Errant x 3 + Senaschal
Errant x 4 + Baron
Custodian x 3 + Senaschal
Warden x 4 + Senaschal
Lancer x 4 + Senaschal
Tbolts
Tbolts

Grey Knights
Strike + Grand Master + Hunter + Dreadknight + Rhinos
Inquis Warband + Chimera
Inquis warband + Chimera
Terminators
Interceptor + 2x Dreadknights
Interceptor + 2x Dreadknights
Strike Cruiser
Stormtalon
Stormtalon
Thawk
Thawk

So when I see this list, I see a really aggressive marine assault list. I wanted to take that approach and get the strike benefit teleport benefit so the Interceptors went in.

My first activation was the strike cruiser which had a lucky plot, prepping three formations and wounding an errant. I had the two interceptors teleport next to the Knight's BTS/SC formation and, with the reroll, had not blast markers. I then retained and combined assaulted the BTS off the map. *This was how I saw this list generally working. Carefully targeted first turn assaults that dictate the rest.of the game. Win big/lose big.*

One formation came out ok, but the other interceptor was broken at half strength. The castellians turned and fired on the broken interceptor, breaking them and killing all but the dreadknights.

I used Storm talons to prep the paladins, then air assaulted from the flank w the Thawk filled with terminators. They killed two paladins, and won the assault, but got broken right after and the two remaining ended up camping a T&H obj for the game.

The rest of the game was fairly generic, but I just wanted to highlight the assault power over two turns of the grey knights. The trade off, of course, is that I had already activated more than half my points.

I talked with Tim, and he agreed that the list hits hard a first, but lost some steam later in the game. Part of that being a result of the list I built which, after playing, needs more ground presence to help hold objectives.

I had a lot of fun playing the list. The teleport rule from the strike cruiser is a lot of fun, but being limited by the cruiser's capacity is a good way to prevent a broken list. There may be some ways to break the ability on turn 3, but I'll need to test it. As a list with so much teleporting, it could open up to some gamey situations where the GK player has an empty board for two turns, but I'm not sure the list has the tools outside of that to effectively compete to objectives on three and four. Tim seemed to like the list as well, and he hasn't been sold on the new fluff of a full grey Knight army. If he stumbles on this, hopefully he'll leave his thoughts below.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Hey gunslinger,

Thanks for the game!!!!!

Glad you guys liked the list so far. Keen to hear Tims feedback as well if he comes on. I haven't had many games with the Grey Knights yet. Would love to get more in. I been finding the same results with the Deathwatch being a alpha strike turn and trying win the attrition war. Glad your keen for testing. I'm keen to hear about the turn 3 drops. I did want to discourage it but Ive also found some of my games against Necrons with a turn 3 drop are fun as hell games being so cagey with objectives on the line every turn.

Thanks heaps for the feedback!!!

Norto

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:45 pm 
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I know this isn’t a list that draws the most attention on the boards, or even with the Inquisition sub forums, so I greatly appreciate everyone who takes the time to provide feedback. As I’ve said before, I think Norto has done a great job getting the list to this point. There aren’t major restructuring changes I want to make to the list, but I do have several ideas I’d like to take up with the community before rolling out a v2.0 of the list.


Direction of the Grey Knights List:
I envision the Grey Knights functioning as a hard-hitting, elite force that supplements their lines with some more “generic” units to flesh out their utility. My goal is for the list to be most effective as an alpha strike list, and step back a bit from a ground pound approach. Space marines already execute this strategy well, and I think the fluff of the Grey Knights lends itself to really embracing this approach. This means relying on initial flexibility to enter the battlefield via teleport, drop pods, and air assaults while sacrificing mobility later in the game with the lack of transportation. I want to keep the list GK centric with a couple of Inquisition options to reflect 1) the limited use of Inquisition for fear they are corrupted by Chaos and 2) to help the list keep a distinct feel of Grey Knights and not a greater Inquisition or GK “plus” list. That said, I think the current list suffers from being a little one-dimensional now and I hope that by including some of my changes, it’ll open up attractive list building options.

I have some concerns about a list that allows this much teleport and air assault turning into a turn 3 grab list, at best pushing games to turn 4 and at worst turning a game into a one round mess. I’ll be stress testing this option, but if anyone is looking to try and break this list (‘sup UK?), this may be a good place to start.


New Units:
Inquisition Storm Trooper Platoons: 175 pts for 6 stands. 5/5/4 stat line to make them a bit more punchy than the scouting Warrior Acolytes. The formation would include an Inquisitor as well. I see this is a accurate port from the Steel Legion list (200 pts for 8 stands = 50pts per stand.) I went with 6 stands to match the size of the Inquisition Warband and added 25 points for the inclusion of the Inquisitor. Upgrades would include 3 rhinos for 25 pts or 3 Valkyries for 125 points. I went with Rhinos over Chimera because the fluff dictated that Stormtroopers for the Inquisition and the Grey Knights frequently have access to upgraded weaponry, but they can be Chimeras if people have strong feelings. Ironically, I chose the rhino to limit the shooting out of the formation and the list. The points upgrades might be able to be massaged a bit, but I don’t want to make these an auto-include option to pad activations. The idea is for the player to make a conscious decision to take Valkyries for the barrage, which would be the only place to access it in this list.

Chaplains
I’d like to incorporate Chaplains into the list. They’ll function similar to the librarians, as a 25 point upgrade. They’re especially valuable to a list that will be relying heavily on engagements.

Purifiers and Paladins
These are a tricky unit since they’re elite units within an elite force. My take is that the Paladins are already represented by the Brotherhood Champion upgrade. I’ll touch more on this later. As for the Purifiers, they’re a highly elite “spiritual heart” of the chapter. I thought we could try and represent them with a 4/3/3 stat line, fearless to represent dogmatic dedication to the chapter’s goals, and price them at 325 for 4 units. They would be a 0-1 army option to reflect they’re small numbers. As a high risk/high reward unit, they’d have excellent martial prowess (3+ for engagements) but with only average marine saves of 4+, they could be whittled down quickly. I’m not sure they’d be a first choice for list building myself, but I like the idea of incorporating such a key unit into the army and I’d like to expand the list building selections.


Unit Changes:
Death Cult Assassin – I’d like to remove First Strike, and switch that to Sniper. As an assassin, it seems natural to me that they should have the goal of identifying their target. The 3+ in CC is where the work is really being done, so I would like to keep the infiltrator to ensure the CC attack can be applied to the desired target. Alternatively, I would suggest removing infiltrator and FS, adding Sniper, and switching the 3+ to FF and bumping the points from 20 to 25.

Inquisition Warband – Removing Arvus lighters. These are typically civilian cargo craft from my understanding, not military grade transports. They’ll be stuck in the Chimeras.

Nemesis Dreadknight – This is a continuation of Norto’s discussion on 4++ v 3+. While I love their effectiveness at 4++, I think this may be a bit too much for the 25 pt increase over a dreadnought with the speed increase as well. I’m thinking the 3+ will be the way to go, but wanted to hear if anyone had thoughts since the change.

All Grey Knight Infantry – add 6+ Inv save. This would represent several aspects of the fluff such as the warded Aegis armor, assistance from their psychic powers, and help to differentiate them from standard marines with a more “elite” save, without making the units too difficult to destroy.

Brotherhood Champion - rename to Paladin Escort to match the most recent fluff. I thought about adding them to librarians and other leaders as well per the fluff, but I don't see that being a cost effective upgrade people would take. I'm interested to see what people think.


Special Rules:
Grey Knight Teleport Homer – I really enjoy this rule and think it fits the list perfect. It offers a great balance between useful ability that fits the list design, while limiting how and when it can be used. I want to refine the wording of the rule just a bit to clarify the order of actions taken with the spacecraft now – activation, bombardment, drop pods, place teleporters, roll for teleports, reroll teleports.


So there’s my ideas for the list. I’ll leave these proposals up for discussion. Depending on the level of discussion, I’ll release v2.0 by the new year at the latest. As necessity and testing determines, I’ll roll out a new v.2.x every month to two months. By the middle of 2019, I’m aiming to have finalized version. Then the hard part begins collecting 18 bat reps from three groups to apply for the coveted “approved” list status.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:56 am 
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Hi gunslinger, and thanks for the road map and your design ideas. These are my reflections.

Inquisition Storm Trooper: These would be core formations, I suppose? I would prefer Rhinos over Chimeras for your reasons as well as making them differ from Guard storm troopers, and am not sold on adding Valkyries. The Valkyries could prove to be very good in this context. I am thinking 175 for the platoon and 100-125 for the Valkyries. 70 cm move, barrage and then engage with teleporting hammers, with valkyries and storm troopers for support. I think this would surely kill any incitements for using Stormravens, which are hardly justifiable as is. Another way to limit these would be to put them in the support slot. That would at least mean the choice between Teleporting units or Barrage.

Chaplains: In this, I dissaprove. This is a crutch for engagement lists. Grey Knights should be about Librarians. I think the Brother Captain / Librarian choice is characterful and different from regular Marines. If you include chaplains, there will be *no* librarians. To augment Librarians, you could use something like this:

Librarians: Add 6+ invulnerable save to all units (including what counts for a unit in assaults plus transporting war engines) with a Librarian.

Invulnerable save: Could be done to improve resilience to a force of small units.

Paladins: I agree. Keep them as bodyguard.

Purifiers: If you intend to add them, do it either as a unit or as switches. Unit would probably be easiest.

Nemesis Dreadknights. 3+ is better, and maybe stops making them an automatic inclusion.


Units I find difficult incorporating in my lists:

Storm Ravens. Maybe a drop to 300? The Storm Raven is also very hard to justify as a +75 points upgrade for transporting expensive infantry in a Teleport army. I think making Storm Ravens work with Purgation teams could be the alternative to Storm Troopers in Valks.

Grey Knight Dreadnoughts. Severely outclassed by Dreadknights and just plain worse. Maybe three for 125 as an upgrade could see them being used with Strike squads in Teleport, or a unit of four on their own.

My thoughts on your thoughts,
Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:13 am 
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Another idea would be to ditch purifiers and aff fearless to dreadnoughts, giving them added utility

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:49 pm 
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I like your direction, i felt i was i going and the others before me were going in the same direction. High risk high reward aggressive army. Am also keen on not seeing it be a turn 3 army.

I don't mind Chaplains going back in, would just love to see the love for the librarians in the list.

Purifiers sounds like a good option to give it some added fluffy units for building an army.

Inquisition Warband/Assassin stats. I'm not really fussed on the changes. Id be keen to consistency across lists. So if this is the way to go I'd be trying to push them on the death watch list too.

2 Dread knights at 4+ RF were pretty good turn 1 engagements. May be worth testing more.

All Grey Knight Infantry gaining invun 6+. Seems fine to try out, I do like fredmans idea for it to be incorporated with librarians. Not sure how it fits with fluff though.

I'm all for trying out your ideas and look forward to a list so I hit the tables with it....Vassal

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:55 am 
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The idea is for the storm troopers to be a support formation to limit how many you can bring, especially with an Inquisition formation already in the core slot. To add the Valkyries on pushes the formation to 300. In a list that is already pushed for activations, I think this is a good place for it. It forces a trade off where the player will need to give something up for the utility it'll bring with the barrage.

I think a list that focused on engagements needs to at least have the option to bring an inspiring character. This list has small formation sizes and could often be looking at having less units in an engagement. Offering an inspiring character can help to counter that. From a fluff perspective, all GKs have a psychic ability. Reviewing the brotherhoods and fluff, I don't see there being a specific higher ratio of librarians. Since librarians and chaplains fill different rolls in the game, I don't necessarily think that people bring chaplains will be to the exclusion of a librarian. It could be that they would just have saved the points for a character upgrade. If people want to run a list with more librarians, having both available gives them the ability to make that choice. No sure about incorporating an additional save based on a character, I don't believe that's a utility granted in any other list. Plus that would likely need to push the cost of the character higher. A baseline librarian is worth 25pts, I would think that cost would need to at least double, making the character unappealing for different reasons even with an added bonus.

Purifiers would be brought in as their own separate formation.

Storm ravens seems to fit the roll of a predator-esqe unit. I agree that they're not ideal at the moment. I think part of that problem is that this list 1) doesn't lend itself to ground transport by the nature of how it functions and 2) where it does, the ride needs to be cost efficient to save space. Personally, I'll test the formation in the gunship roll, but not sure I'd shell out for the transport roll. Kyuss and Dave have been discussing "upgunning" the unit in the Blood Angel thread to make them worth their points. I'd like to see the outcome of their testing to keep consistency across lists. I believe they were testing the addition of an AP4+ shot and 3xFF5+ instead of 1@4.

Dreadnoughts - This is a tough unit. They're pretty much the red headed step child of all marine lists. Its a shame since they're so iconic to the faction. They're too slow to fit with other vehicles, but people are hesitant to put them in infantry. I thought about making a "walker" formation, but decided against it since dreads are so rare for the GKs per the fluff. I'm open to suggestions to make them more appealing, but I don't want to stray too far from how they function in many approved lists.

Assassins - great Norto! We can touch base on your thoughts how the unit should function and what, if any, direction you'd be interested in trying out more. I've used the unit before and the 3+ FS leaves its mark often enough. I found the idea of the assassin being able to pick its roll against a specific stand a bit more fluffy and adding a utility unique in the list, but understand concerns on an infiltrating CC sniper.

Thanks for the help!

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:04 pm 
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I have done some research on Grey Knights, but am not entirely up to date. Unless something has changed, Grey Knights do not use Chaplains. They are the chapter of the already pure. They are in all incarnations known for their psychic mastery. An invulnerable save to all grey knight infantry is therefore a fitting extra rule.

I have two beefs with Chaplains for Grey Knights, the first is a fluff perspective, the other a list design perspective.

It seems that some of your suggestions adds demands of an Inspiring character. Removing ranged attacks from the inquisitor warbands by switching Chimeras to Rhinos further accentuates the need for Chaplains. Inserting chaplains, adding Barrage, and Purifiers further enhances the alpha strike dimension by adding damage output. My idea of Librarian ward saves maybe was not the best ever, but it was an idea to make Grey Knights pay for added resilience through librarians instead of adding combat result. They are an alpha strike force. If they want resilience, they have to pay for it.

Other ideas centered around Librarians. Just suggestions. These would all have to be costed appropriately. But I think psychic mastery is a much more rewarding design route than chaplains.

Grey Knight Librarians are Fearless.
Grey Knigh Librarian Smites are better
Grey Knight Librarians have Smite and Inspiring
Grey Knight Librarians have Psychic Hood, their Invulnerable save is 5+

I do not mean to come off as harsh. I like the Inquisitorial storm trooper idea. I like the 0-1 purifiers. I really like that you are an active player with the intention of making the list work.

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:43 am 
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No worries Fredmans, I appreciate the feedback and want you to have your input into the list. I'm the one overseeing the list, but I don't want to exclude the community who will be playing the list just so my personal vision is executed. I'm glad to have someone whose outspoken with their thoughts on the list!

As for the fluff, I'm working off of a mix from lexicanum and the most recent 40k codex. I apologize if I'm overlooking older now fluff. Since this list mimics the newer idea of a chapter of GKs fighting together, I'm generally going to stick with the new text. The codex includes chaplains and their abilities to strengthen the resolve of their brothers in arms, especially through the shared psychic bond of the brothers are arms. Doesn't mean we need to include the chaplain though. I'd love to hear from some more of the community on their thoughts, even if I might be preaching to the choir here ;)

Perhaps we aim for an "upgraded" librarian that includes Inspiring for total of +50pts? Then they'd be 25 less than the Grandmaster upgrade, and be comparable to 75 points in vanilla Marines (considering all the formations come with a 25 pt leader.) It'd be pricey, and limit activations down the line, but hopefully ensure better outcomes from engagements (and preserve more units by winning!)

To clarify, the current Inquisition Warband will maintain the use of Chimera. It would only be the Stormtroopers that would have access to Rhinos. I want to keep the Stormtroopers from being an "auto include" option for the list, so part of my consideration in doing that was to keep them from also bringing the longer range shots of a Chimera and being stuck zipping around in Rhinos.

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