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Space marines?
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Author:  rasputindarksyde [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:44 am ]
Post subject:  Space marines?

I have just started playing gothic and marines. I am having a very tough time with marines. What is some of your best options for new players that are playing marines. I have only played against nids and imperium. I got lucky with imperium but I am having no luck against nids. What do I do? There is also a necron player and eldar player which I havent played against yet.

thanks

Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

rasputindarksyde wrote:
I have just started playing gothic and marines. I am having a very tough time with marines. What is some of your best options for new players that are playing marines. I have only played against nids and imperium. I got lucky with imperium but I am having no luck against nids. What do I do? There is also a necron player and eldar player which I havent played against yet.

thanks

First, Welcome to BFG!

Second, Best Option for new players is NOT to play SM.

But most likely you won't change either due to stubborn gamerness or lack of funds for a whole new fleet. So I ask you what have you been doing against your foes? Tactics? Also what is your force? And what do you have altogether?

SM are hard to play and hard to learn. There not like 40k where you can play anything and be dumb as a rock and win. Two main list's that are use are:

Strike Cruiser, Strike Cruiser, Strike Cruiser, Strike Cruiser, Strike Cruiser, Strike Cruiser, Strike Cruiser, Strike Cruiser, Strike Cruiser and So on....

The other max Battle Barge for game size and Escorts.....

Mixing SC's and BB's don't generally work well for some reason. With SC's you have the toughness and speed to dash across the board and pillage them from the backside fairly easy with the 90 degree turns and 25cm. And with Battle Barge's the opponent tends to focus on them, which gives your mass escorts the ability to flank him again because your BB are not easily destroyed.

Another option is to take Battlefleet Armageddon list. So you can run line cruisers and SM punch after is safe to swoop in.

As for your enemy's, Imperial are fairly beatable if you stay out of the Torpedoes and Nova Cannons! Close the gap!

Nids should be easy I would think. There a fairly slow moving fleet oddly enough. What are they running?

Eldar can and will do circle around you as they move twice and don't have minimum movement or turning limits. But there speed is based on the sun so get in a position where they can ran as fast after they hit you. Then his Firepower chart based weapons like Batteries and Bombardment Cannons as they don't get the 2+ Save. Then they will die. Because Eldar ship are made with tinfoil and balsa wood protected by a fancy shield.

Crons are very hard to kill. They are super fast, well armored and nasty weapons. Pray for Luck!

Author:  rasputindarksyde [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

well thank you for your fast response.

I have at the momment 4 stike cruisers, 1 battlebarge, 5 novas, 5 gladius, and 6 hunters.

My last list was 3x 2 stike cruisers and 4 gladius in a formation. I proxed it. I played against nids and they had 2 hive ships a couple of cruisers and 2 big squads of escorts, ones with lances and then one with batteries. I was doing ok until in got to close to the hive ships. when they brought 24 lances to bare on 2 of my squads. Needless to say that I didnt fare to well after that. I am unsure why the nids have so much firepower, it pretty dumb if you ask me. I can useally out maneuver them, but there fire power is just to much to deal with.

We are also having a tough time figureing out the turn order how does that work?

well thanks again.

Author:  TwilightWalker [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

rasputindarksyde wrote:
well thank you for your fast response.

I have at the momment 4 stike cruisers, 1 battlebarge, 5 novas, 5 gladius, and 6 hunters.

My last list was 3x 2 stike cruisers and 4 gladius in a formation. I proxed it. I played against nids and they had 2 hive ships a couple of cruisers and 2 big squads of escorts, ones with lances and then one with batteries. I was doing ok until in got to close to the hive ships. when they brought 24 lances to bare on 2 of my squads. Needless to say that I didnt fare to well after that. I am unsure why the nids have so much firepower, it pretty dumb if you ask me. I can useally out maneuver them, but there fire power is just to much to deal with.

We are also having a tough time figureing out the turn order how does that work?

well thanks again.


Twenty Four Bio-Plasma Spines!? You must have come in awfully close, as those are some of the shortest weapons in existence I believe. That's probably the reason they have so many of them, as 15cm's of range isn't much, especially when 30cm is a more common reach. And on the slow Hive Ships, you should be more than able to keep out of the reach of those with Strike Cruisers. You also might want to take a peek through the FAQs as well to make sure things are going by the correct rules.

As for turn order. One person issues special orders, then moves all ships, then shoots all of his ships, then moves and resolves all of his ordnance, after which the other player moves and resolves their ordnance, and then both players go through the end phase, with the player who's turn it is removes blast markers. And then the turns switch and it happens all over again.

Author:  rasputindarksyde [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

Well I dont see why they need that many or have a chance to take that many first of all but. Yeah I know they are short range now, I didn't know he had that many until I got that close. lol I was moving past to move around the back of his escorts to light them up but needless to say he blew me away. well we were doing turns wrong then any ways. we thought it was one person moves the other moves, then the first person shoots then the other shoots, and so on and so on. the book is not very clear on it.

This might help alittle bit.

I have found that it is better to be close anyways. Those batteries are pretty useless from long range. Not to mention the cannon too. Am I wrong?

Author:  TwilightWalker [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

Nah, you're not wrong for batteries. The closer you are, the better,and relative movement helps a lot too. I don't play SM OR Tyranids in BFG, but looking over both of your rules, it looks like one of the best things you can do is ram Thunderhawks into his ships to pull off H&R attacks repeatedly. He makes you roll 2d6 and pick the worst as a Tyranid, but as an SM, you always add 1 to each role, which makes H&R attacks worthwhile. At the very least, you blow his spores away, and everything else wrecks up his weaponry. I'm sure others can give you more valid tactics though, ones that are more familiar with this match-up.

You also might want to make sure he's following the rules for his synaptic control.

Author:  rasputindarksyde [ Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

yeah i understand about the thunderhawks, but my problem is I dont like that you have to reload ordnance with a order. I am not sure why the crew are so dumb that they don't know to reload ordnace once it fires. I just think it kinda slows down the game a bit, but I am new so i guess its for game balance.

Oh yeah he follows that thing to a T. I think its kinda silly though. I dont think nids are that dumb either, again probably for game balance.

I am just trying to figure out the best load out for ships. I guess the strike cruisers are the main stay of the force? So if I run them I shouldn't worry about the barges I should just use escorts with them. How would you group up? Or woukld you just run each cruiser by it self and the escorts by them selves. I really lilked my 2 strike crusier and 4 gladius squadron. Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing? Its a lot of batteries coming and alot of turrets too. Just dont know?

Well thanks again. keep the ideas coming.

Author:  TwilightWalker [ Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

Like I said, I don't play SM, but it looks like Angel of Caliban wrote out what you need to do. Throw in all Strike Cruisers, with escorts to fill in whatever points deficit you have. I recommend something that has torpedoes or lances, as they're both something SM lack. Tactics wise, and this is a shot in the dark, use your superior range to play keep-away from his hive ships as you pound out Thunderhawk after Thunderhawk. Remember that you can only have as many on the board as your launch bay capacity, but that's a lot of little ships flying out to cripple his. If he keeps his escorts in close, then I think your best bet would be to either cripple the lot and close for the kill with up the kilt shots. If he sends his escorts chasing after you, weaken them with Thunderhawks before going to Lock On and tearing them a new one with your Bombardment guns.

Author:  rasputindarksyde [ Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

Sounds good but what superior range. I have max 30 cm range on all ships except for the barge. Is 30 cm good? I will try what you say not sure if I can do it but will give it a go.

thanks

Author:  TwilightWalker [ Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

It's better than the range of his Bio-Plasma, that's for sure! Though I have to admit that even if you're at the outer edge of your range, he can still move up and ping you at the edge of his range on his turn. It's why you want up the kilt shots. It's one of the reasons why you want an escort with torps to fill out the rest of your points, to give you some longer-ranged ordnance that will actually do a few points of damage. If you're lucky, they'll impact a ship that has it's spores gone.

Author:  rasputindarksyde [ Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

well like I said earlier, not a big fan of ordance as the rules dont make sense for them. I wish they were alittle bit better. I hate having to give up moving options to reload something that should be reloaded automaticly. In my opinion anyways. I do agree that torpedos are mean and nice to use I just wish I had some on cruisers too. Thats my biggest grip about the marine fleet, lack of options for a fleet. Oh well...lol

Author:  TwilightWalker [ Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

Yeah. You may want to proxy as the Imperial Navy or Chaos until you really get the hang of playing the game, and then switch back to SM. I beleive the orders thing is for balance though, and to force you to choose what it is you want to do every turn. It also captures the chance of you running out of ordnance on a 12, and prevents easy torpedo spam and the like.

Edit: Completely forgot. Check out this site for more BFG related stuff, you should get ALOT more help over there.
http://portmaw.com/

Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

TwilightWalker wrote:
It's better than the range of his Bio-Plasma, that's for sure! Though I have to admit that even if you're at the outer edge of your range, he can still move up and ping you at the edge of his range on his turn. It's why you want up the kilt shots. It's one of the reasons why you want an escort with torps to fill out the rest of your points, to give you some longer-ranged ordnance that will actually do a few points of damage. If you're lucky, they'll impact a ship that has it's spores gone.

If your Nid enemy is playing his fleet right then any and all ordnance will be a waste of time and points. A Hive ship (1 for every 500pts) comes standard with 4 Spores (Shields/Turrets) plus the ability to upgrade to 6 Spores. The spores shoot at 4+ against ordnance unless there in contact with a blast markers which then that many spores hit on a 6+. So the ship is never completely defenseless and to make matters worse Nid ships can target Attack Craft and Torpedoes in the same turn unlike other fleet's that have to chose. Another note too is that when you normally cripple a ship the turrets are halved, but not with Nids they stay a full strength. So moral of the story is if you are going to use ordnance then you must first place enough blast markers to suppress turrets and then still use loads ordnance to do anything. But if you have taken down the Spores with blast markers already then you should keep hammering with direct fire weapons as the "shields" are down and they will be taking damage. =)

As for battling Nids I would avoid Hive ships unless there on your terms. I would try to pick off all escorts first and then go after the Hive ships when there is no support left. Also try to divide his Hive ships, there easier to pick off one by one. If your running BB then you could out distance shoot him which may be safer but would take longer. If your running SC I would try to close the gap to maximum effect for your Battery table weapons. With only 30cm there is a very good chance that the Hive will be able to fire back next turn therefore get in extra close to maximize your weapons if you don't get a 2nd round of shooting. Also you should try to get into a firing arc with less Bio Plasma and in a position where they will be unable to swing around all the way or if they do they leave there backside open to other ships (Escorts) that can hit them with no fear of retaliation. The another note is that you should bring in 4 or more SC when you do attack. Giving the Nids hard choices on who and what to shoot but if you do make sure there in the same arcs so your not helping him by letting more of his weapons shoot at you.

As for fleet construction I would run the SC or BB fleet with Escorts. Mixing Cruiser and Barges generally don't work well and your spiting up your style of play. Of course there are time and enemy's in which it might be worth it to split fleet doctrine but in general no. My favorite SM escort is the Hunter but not always the best choice depending on your fleet style and the enemy. Like against Nids Hunter are a waste of points but versus Chaos or Orks they are very useful.

A general and rounded fleet for any engagement to any enemy would be the two ships fighting style BB and SC. Now which escorts fit's better with who matters. With an all Strike Cruiser list I would Hunters mainly with a splash of Nova's and Gladi's. The SC lack torpedoes which is why the Hunter is main counterpoint with this you can force a player to chose to take a Torpedo attack or to activate turrets against it. If they shoot at the torpedoes then move your T-hawks in for undefended attack causing instant criticals all over, but if they don't shoot at the large barrage of torpedo death and rather wait for the T-Hawks, well then just don't attack and laugh at your opponent for taking damage and not fighting back. =)

Battle Barge I would say can work well with any of the escorts types. Nova might be a good Idea to hit targets after a BB softens it up or even Hunters to try and drive the enemy fleet into your trap or Gladi's to give supporting fire or flank cover.

Against Nid I would take SC's with Nova's (for lance hits after the Spores are down) and Gladi's for mass firepower. Max out both squads to six and avoid mixing types. I would also squadron your SC's in two to make your BC's and WB's more effective.

Any other questions you have feel free to post as I'm sure there are others that can answer somethings better or have more insight too. I have Imperials, SM's, Eldar and Nids for BFG and play against pretty much everything often expect Crons. I'm surprised Blackhorizon hasn't posted yet. Also Portmaw is good website too.

Without the reload order it would make some fleet's alot more powerful. Besides most the time doing SO isn't needed so reloading isn't such a issue.

Sorry for the late reply. I was typing this yesterday afternoon when my power went out and lost internet. Luckily I was able to finish my post on my laptop and save it. Our power just came back on.


Author:  rasputindarksyde [ Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

Thanks Caliban. This will help greatly. So I shouldn't mix escorts with strike cruisers in one squadron. I should just use squadron of escorts and then 2 cruisers together. Its funny the game I did win was againt Imperium and I used squadrons of escorts and 2 squadrons of 3 cruisers. It was pretty powerful when I brought those batteries to bare on his ships. I do bellieve it is going to be a tough road to really get the Marines going. but with you help I think it will work. Nids really scare me though. I just dont have any luck against them I guess. lol Well back to the drawing board on list writing. Wish me luck. lol

Author:  TwilightWalker [ Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Space marines?

Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Big Wall of Text


Shows what I know about SM! Aren't Thunderhawks resilient though? And Don't forget that Tyranid evolution upgrades are refits too, not all-inclusive upgrades.

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