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Point cost formula

 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:25 pm 
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Skullhamma wrote:
Hey folks!

Sorry for resurrecting this long dead thread....

I would be interested in having a somehow valid point cost formula (some people here said that they know it). The reason is simple. I want to give Epic 40k a try, since I like it's simplicity and speed (I have the armies, but I don't have TIME). Lots of units are covered in the ruleset or have been streamlined and merged into one group of units (like Ork Battlewaggonz). Stil there are some units missing... I have found rules for Imperial Knights, but I'd like to field the Eldar counterparts as well. Does somebody have rules for them or a good idea how to create them?

Thanks in advance! :)


Hi!

Interestingly, we have been debating this very same point in the net epic revision sub forums.

I've decided to go ahead a do it, but that that would be for net epic not epic 40k.

Of course whatever we come up with could be ported over or modified for any version of epic.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:31 pm 
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I would LOVE that, Primarch! I really miss a good generic option for Epic battles... Future War Commander seemed to be cool to me but the command rules can be annoying. Strike Legion is far too time-intense when it comes to larger battles. A generic version for any EPIC game is more I could ever ask for!

Keep us informed, please! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Skullhamma wrote:
I would LOVE that, Primarch! I really miss a good generic option for Epic battles... Future War Commander seemed to be cool to me but the command rules can be annoying. Strike Legion is far too time-intense when it comes to larger battles. A generic version for any EPIC game is more I could ever ask for!

Keep us informed, please! :)


Hi!

I feel the same way you do. Sometimes I just want to use whatever models I want and stringent troop compositions is a downer to that.

When I designed my Heresy game a decade ago, this is what I did. I designed a points cost formula and the then made troop organizations based on that. I think a coherent formula goes a long way for assuring some balance.

I'll post a link to the thread here when I begin thread.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:18 pm 
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This is funny... I allready had your Heresy game on my hard drive for years! First time I took a real look - it's all there, Sir! May I ask if you still play it? It doesn't fit to this topic, I fear... Anyway, congrats for having finished such a stunning project. I should give it a try!


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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:59 pm 
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Actually I have this on an excel spreadsheet somewhere. Can't remember where I got it but it was more of a summary of what special abilities cost and so forth. Like Calvary, or Assault. Comes in handy for like creating Chaos Calvary or Screamer Daemons (which the skimmer ability). I'll see if I can dig it up.

But as far as movement and so forth I dont think it does that. Most along the lines of customizing an existing unit, more to make units that werent included in the armies book (which wasnt very many).


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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:05 pm 
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Skullhamma wrote:
This is funny... I allready had your Heresy game on my hard drive for years! First time I took a real look - it's all there, Sir! May I ask if you still play it? It doesn't fit to this topic, I fear... Anyway, congrats for having finished such a stunning project. I should give it a try!


Hi!

Apologies for the late reply.

I have seldom had time in the last decade to play sadly.

Since this represents a "renaissance" for me, I will try to update heresy as well as my epic conversions for Dirtside II. They are both long overdue for an overhaul. :)

Thank you for the kind comments.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:06 pm 
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KTG17 wrote:
Actually I have this on an excel spreadsheet somewhere. Can't remember where I got it but it was more of a summary of what special abilities cost and so forth. Like Calvary, or Assault. Comes in handy for like creating Chaos Calvary or Screamer Daemons (which the skimmer ability). I'll see if I can dig it up.

But as far as movement and so forth I dont think it does that. Most along the lines of customizing an existing unit, more to make units that werent included in the armies book (which wasnt very many).


Hi!

It would be nice to have it!

Let me know if you locate it.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:50 am 
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Hi, I found the excel sheet. Again I don't know where I got this from, sometime back in the day when everyone had custom Epic stuff all over the place. Not sure if this is someone's attempt to crack the code so to speak, but if you can make sense of the formulas you prob can get an idea. Everything under the calculated columns is trying to find a formula to match the actual point value in the armies book. On my own, I could see when adding abilities to something like Assault or whatever to a unit, the cost was pretty universal in the Armies book, it didn't vary from unit to unit or army, so if I wanted to give someone a skill, I could look up a unit in the armies book that COULD get it, and use that value. Also, I have an article from White Dwarf where Gavin Thorpe is coming up with custom rules for Dark Angels Raven Wing and so on, and the logic he uses for coming up with those custom costs. Its pretty much like, "oh this sounds right kind of thing". I remember when they did the Epic 40k rules for Tau, they were like, "Well me and the fat guy sat at the table and talked over what we thought they should be worth". Keep in mind I don't think they played a single game of Epic 40k with the Tau, but I know they knew Epic. The point is, while you can come up with estimations on how something costs, there is always variations. Like when they bumped up the cost of AT weapons by 5 points. No real explanation how they came up with 5 for each AT, but then Land Raiders were now worth 45 points instead of the original 35.

Keep in mind I tried to crack the AT/SM1 versus SM2/TL code back in the day that I discussed back in another thread. You can get really close on some things, and then there is always a unit or two that just throws it all off. And going through that whole Epic A debacle... and sometimes Jervis being "well xx feels right". I laugh about point values in 40k all the time too. How some skill is worth 3 points while another is 2, come on. But like others, I do like something definitive to point to and say this is the value. And as I've been a fan of Epic since the days of AT, you should see some of the early Space Marine articles, and how vehicles values changed over the couple of the first years. And then when some things started being free I was just so annoyed. Everything should have a definite value you can measure, the only problem is its so mostly speculative. Even by the designers I think. But the lack of complicated rules for units actually helps Epic 40k in this case, because you can compare all of the units that have a certain ability to see how they add up. How they came up with the point values for Shokk Attack Guns or Prism Cannons in SM2/TL I have no idea.

I had another doc that listed the cost of the skills but I cant find it. I thought it was in that workbook. Which I attached. But a s I said above, you can get those from the armies book.


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Epic 40,000 Unit and Skills Costs.xls [51.5 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Hi! Thanks for the document, it may become useful. :)

I will try out some homebrew designs to see how it works. Maybe others have done this before... is there anybody who has figured out values for Eldar Knights?


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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:36 am 
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There was this article in Citadel Journal where you could assign "special ability" skills to an existing vehicle. It lowered one stat and increased another stat. I've been using these to design new units.

It was like "add 1 to Firepower", but "lose 5cm Speed" etc...

I've been using the above together with following point cost modifiers. Use them with extreme caution!

Assault: +1 point
Jump Packs: +4 points
Rampage: +0 points
Infiltrators: +1 point
Hero: +5 points
Cavalry: +(original points times 10 divided by 7)
Save: divide original points cost by 5 multiply by 6

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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:02 pm 
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Hi guys, found part of that spreadsheet I was originally talking about. It kind of goes with the previous one i posted. Not much too it, and honestly its pretty much unchanged from when I got it, but you can see how you could build your units cost based on this and what is in the other sheet.

Maybe I could combined the two and make them look pretty.

I found this buried in my Google email inbox from years ago. I lost my other copy of it. So cool this turned up.

EDIT: Nevermind, i see what I just posted was already on sheet 2 of the previous workbook i loaded lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:20 pm 
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thnx for sharing!

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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 5:50 pm 
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Hi!

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:30 pm 
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Over the past years I composed the "Epic 40,000 Armies II" PDF. This PDF contains many armies and units that were not released for the 6mm version of WH40K.

The stat lines and point costs took the most of my time. I meticulously reverse engineered the existing units and came up with a rather solid formula. Which I've decided to finally share with the community.

Start with two existing units that have a lot in common with the custom unit you wish to design. Then increase or decrease stats and add or remove skills.

Adjusting Stats:
Assault +1 = reduce Range to 15cm
Armour +1 = reduce Speed with 5cm
Speed +5cm = Firepower -1
Speed +5cm = Armour -1
Speed +5cm = reduce Range with 15cm
Firepower +1 = reduce Speed with 5cm
Firepower +1 = Armour -1
Range +15cm = reduce Speed with 5cm

Adjusting Skills:
+Flak = Firepower halved (rounding up)*
+Close Support = reduce Range to 15cm*
+Assault = points +1
+Jump Packs = points +4
+Rampage = points +0
+Infiltrators = points +1
+Save = (points / 5) x 6**
+Cavalry = (points x 10) / 7
+Hero = points +5
+Psyker = points +15
+Transport (1) = points +3

* Take care not to misuse these formulae.
** Divide unit points by five then multiply by 6.

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 Post subject: Re: Point cost formula
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:29 am 
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I have trouble finding the right cost for the "Skimmer" special skill...

Anyone any bright ideas?


The SM Attack Bike is a SM Land Speeder with +5cm speed and Skimmer added. The Speeder costs 10 points extra. Or is that double the cost of the Bike? ...

Bike 10 points
Speeder 20 points

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