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Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year

 Post subject: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Just realized while painting some minis last night that Epic 40k was released in 1997, and that this game was 20 years old!

Wow time flies.

Crazy how Epic has been part of our lives for so long.


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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:31 pm 
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I remember when the Eldar were released, and how upset I was that you could no longer get the crew for the heavy weapons. Despite being pictured in all the mini photos too!

Apparently it was so upsetting I eschewed painting Eldar for 20 years...

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:49 pm 
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E40K did have some of the "BEST" Epic models GW ever produced ! 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:55 pm 
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The Epic 40K box was one of the best game boxes GW has had, in my opinion. And opening up a GW big box has always been a lot of fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Dave wrote:
I remember when the Eldar were released, and how upset I was that you could no longer get the crew for the heavy weapons. Despite being pictured in all the mini photos too!

Apparently it was so upsetting I eschewed painting Eldar for 20 years...


Yeah I never understood how they just didn't make some metal to go with those guns.

Nevertheless tho, those newer Eldar platform cannons were awesome.

Legion 4 wrote:
E40K did have some of the "BEST" Epic models GW ever produced ! 8)


Totally agree. Before or since.

andyskinner wrote:
The Epic 40K box was one of the best game boxes GW has had, in my opinion. And opening up a GW big box has always been a lot of fun.

andy


I agree. There is a ton of stuff in that set. We'll never see GW or any company release that much game in one box again, as it kind of kills the need to sell very many supplements.


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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:23 pm 
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SM2/TL was IMO the worst, for a plethora of reasons. Where E40K and now E:A really felt and looked like a move in the right direction. ^-^

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:33 am 
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I think just the opposite for a plethora of reasons. Epic 40k was the best for getting miniatures in the core game box, yes, but in my opinion it was the WORST with a capital W versions of Epic that was ever produced. And I honestly don't think Epic Armageddon was quite as good as SM2/TL either.

Something that has bothered me about Epic 40k (and Epic Armageddon for that matter) is how they did not transfer all of the models from SM2/TL over to Epic 40k or EA. That was a very very big mistake on their part. Unexcusable actually, considering the amount of miniatures that had been produced for the game.

And they put in the Worst mechanic in any of their game systems into EA. The idea that you have to roll to see if a unit or model can activate. Did they not understand that it was only in the time before electronic communication systems that people had to rely on flags being raised and waived around, and horns being blown, and drums being beaten and people yelling loudly to get troops moving and doing what they are supposed to?

With electronic communications, even with all of the jamming and stuff that goes on, there isn't a problem in getting your troops to activate. That hasn't been a problem since the 70s at least. Maybe even earlier. An now we're supposed to believe that 40,000 years in the future, the galaxy's most technologically advanced races are going to have trouble mobilizing their troops? I don't think so. From a gaming point of view, it is absolutely terrible game design. It's no wonder EA tanked.

One of the number one rules of game design is to never EVER allow a rule in a game that makes it so it is possible that a majority of yours or your opponents models cannot activate. Magic the Gathering did it all the time (only not with models) And it is the most complained about thing in their entire game. Warmachine did it too. And it was the most complained about thing in their game (I'm looking at you Sorscha!)

I've seen battle reports of EA where 8 out of 10 units couldn't activate. And what is worse, is that the mechanic allows for this to happen turn after turn after turn until the game is over. People don't mind when their models get killed. But they don't like it when they spend points on models and said models cannot do anything. People like to play games, not have games played at them. In fact, over the years I have seen those kind of mechanics make people rage quit games hundreds of times. They are just BAD.

So while, yes, it's been 20 years since Epic 40k was made, I have no love for it. Not even in the slightest. Because to me, it's birth signaled the death of my favorite version of Epic and ushered in the diet coke version of epic. :tut :tut :{[] :nooo

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:08 pm 
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I don't agree with any of that.

The activation roll takes into account a whole lot more than just "did the troops get my orders". It's an abstraction of Carl von Clausewitz's fog of war and battlefield friction or, more concretely, how danger, exertion, uncertainty and chance affect your troops. I'm sure someone with actual combat experience can comment that these are still a factor even in the conflicts of today. As a non-combatant it makes a lot of sense to me, and I can't see how they won't play a part in the combat of the future.

Having played EA for 12 years, against some 30 opponents if I had to guess, I've never heard anyone complain about activation rolls being part of the game aside from your comments. Claiming that it killed the game is even more far-fetched. GW's unwillingness to give brick and mortar stores a margin on the models, and later removing all of them from their online store are the more likely culprits.

Yes, it sucks when your opponent or chance disrupts your plans. How you re-evaluate and work to mitigate it is what makes Epic, or any game with a similar mechanic, good. Playing a game without fog and friction gets lame pretty quick, if I wanted to just roll dice I'd play Yahtzee. I don't, I want to plan and make contingency plans so my 6mm dudes come out victorious.

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Dave wrote:
I don't agree with any of that.

The activation roll takes into account a whole lot more than just "did the troops get my orders". It's an abstraction of Carl von Clausewitz's fog of war and battlefield friction or, more concretely, how danger, exertion, uncertainty and chance affect your troops. I'm sure someone with actual combat experience can comment that these are still a factor even in the conflicts of today. As a non-combatant it makes a lot of sense to me, and I can't see how they won't play a part in the combat of the future.

Having played EA for 12 years, against some 30 opponents if I had to guess, I've never heard anyone complain about activation rolls being part of the game aside from your comments. Claiming that it killed the game is even more far-fetched. GW's unwillingness to give brick and mortar stores a margin on the models, and later removing all of them from their online store are the more likely culprits.

Yes, it sucks when your plans opponent or chance disrupts your plans. How you re-evaluate and work to mitigate it is what makes Epic, or any game with a similar mechanic, good. Playing a game without fog and friction gets lame pretty quick, if I wanted to just roll dice I'd play Yahtzee. I don't, I want to plan and make contingency plans so my 6mm dudes come out victorious.


Couldn't have said it better myself :)

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:21 pm 
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having been fired upon ... repeatedly, I can say that in my personal opinion the activation and blast marker mechanics were an insanely elegant method of representing battlefield attrition, combat effectiveness, and suppression without bogging down a game at this scale with minutiae. I'm sure CAL, L4, and others would likely agree as well.

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:07 pm 
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I agree with much of what was posted here ... SM2/TL was the poorest gaming version for all the reasons mentioned here. As well as others. It's just not a very good gaming system, IMO. Was geared for GW to sell massive amounts of models. And the rules reflected that. But that being said, GW is in business to sell models and not really a gaming company. They have said that many times. However, there are so many rule systems not just the 4 Epic but other 6mm sci-fi out there. There are a lot of options.

And we all have to remember, differing opinions about adults playing with toys is really nothing to get to upset about. If some think differently about ... again ... the way "Boys playing with Toys". ^-^

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Dave wrote:
I don't agree with any of that.

The activation roll takes into account a whole lot more than just "did the troops get my orders". It's an abstraction of Carl von Clausewitz's fog of war and battlefield friction...


To put if more briefly, Von Clausewitz also said "wars are fought by human beings" [I may have misquoted that a bit] see jimmyzimms post above.

That being said I feel that the EA version of activation is to "gritty" for the scale of the game. But I feel that about most of EA which is why I prefer 3rd Edition.

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Last edited by dlevine999 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:12 pm 
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What brought me into 6mm++ and epic. Still remember when it came into the store. Happy days and a first glimpse into the future of 'modern' mini game systems that followed. Had massive amounts of fun with this game.

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:55 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
having been fired upon ... repeatedly, I can say that in my personal opinion the activation and blast marker mechanics were an insanely elegant method of representing battlefield attrition, combat effectiveness, and suppression without bogging down a game at this scale with minutiae. I'm sure CAL, L4, and others would likely agree as well.


And in any of that time, when they were not being fired upon, did your commanders ever just get so scared that they were not able to act on what their superiors were telling them they had to go do?

I guess I should have been more clear in my first post. I think the mechanic of not being able to move your troops around because they are being suppressed by the enemy, or because their vehicles have been damaged by enemy fire isn't so bad once there is a reason for it that makes sense. In this instance I agree with you. The activation roll and blast markers are insanely elegant for doing that.

But there is no sense in commanders and troops not being able to activate without blast markers on them in the first turn of the game, for either player, if nothing has happened yet. And that is where I think it is the worst mechanic. Because, nothing has happened except troop movement. And suddenly your unit of models cannot activate if you don't make the roll. That doesn't make sense. Especially considering we are not dealing with the standard human most of the time. The standard human being anyone in the human race not indoctrinated into an insane death cult.

Space Marines would NEVER freeze unless they were shot at. No way. And what about the other races? Why are they freezing? Are Eldar that scared of humans? Orks I can understand, as they argue with each other so much they end up standing around, but anyone else? Nah. They should have made it where you are automatically able to activate any unit you have unless they've been shot at and taken a blast marker. Then they should have to make the roll. This way you at least get to play with your toys once before they are locked down.

Look, my opinion on this doesn't mean I hate the game. I just hate certain parts of it. I feel the same about SM2/TL. There were parts of that game that I hated too. But it's still my favorite version of Epic. But Epic 40k? I absolutely hated EVERYTHING about that game.

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 Post subject: Re: Warhammer Epic 40,000 is 20 years old this year
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Ha! Different strokes for different folks!

Must admit an elegant suppression/pinning mechanic is one of the first things i look for in a game system. Its the think that i liked most about Epic40k and i still think this aspect is better in 3rd as it takes account of weight of fire and degrades slowly over turns. In almost every other way EA was an improvement though.

As for failed activation in the first turn - isn't that representing lack of cohesion, readiness and surprise? I don't really imagine forces milling around doing nothing - they are still arriving, demounting transports, prepping equipment, radioing in scouting intel and awaiting orders. Not that i have fought myself, but i don't think armies have lined up in two neat rows waiting for the starting whistle since the 1800s?

Besides, in EA you don't get to do nothing - still get a hold action! :-)

But hey, in the immortal words of L4 : dwefynm! ;-)



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