Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1

 Post subject: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 455
So the discussion of the Eldar Guardians with heavy weapons made me reflect back on AT/SM1 a bit, and how amazing the details of combat could be. I know some might see it as excessive dice rolling, and believe me, I know first hand how this system could drag out big games into taking multiple days to play out, but in smaller games, which could be played on a 3x3 foot area, I think some of the events that can be created are just priceless. It also gives a lot of heroic events that are usually lost in systems that follow an abstract mindset.

Lets take a Land Raider for example, facing off against another Land Raider. There are typically two ranges for each weapon in this system (short and long) so we'll assume they are in short range. Each Land Raider comes with two twin-mounted (or grade 2) lascannons, as well as a heavy bolter facing the front, and another facing the rear. Land Raiders were real beasts in those days. Now the heavy bolters are useless here, so lets say the first Land Raider is opening up with both lascannons on the second. At close range, they would need a 4+ to hit, but this can be modified by its own orders, and even the target's orders, and cover. But lets just keep it at 4+. If any of these 4 dice hit (one dice for each lascannon (the grade 2 gives it 2 dice)), then a critical hit roll is made against vehicles. This represents hitting the engine, fuel, ammo, whatever that signifies catastrophic damage, and only applies to vehicles and Titans, and not infantry. Every weapon has a different critical hit number, and the lascannon comes with a really nice 4+. So on any roll of 4+, the Land Raider is toast, without a save. If a roll of a 1 is made, then that shot actually bounces off the hull, no damage is made.

If any of these critical hits fail, but don't roll 1s, then the target makes his saving throw for each hit. Land Raiders have a nice 3+ save, but as you can see, they can be overwhelmed.

In those rolls alone, I can see a narrative playing out where maybe all hits are made, and all hits are critical, completely obliterating the Land Raider, or maybe all hits are made, none are critical, and some amazing rolls are made to save the Land Raider. Its those heroic moments that are lost in modern games where the focus is on a detachment and not the unit. Maybe all the shots but one miss, yet the one that hits is a critical.

Lets imagine one of the Eldar Avenging Warriors mentioned in the other thread: They come equipped with a single lascannon as a support weapon, meaning they cannot fire it if they have moved. Lets say they are hold up in a building. Lascannons are less effective against infantry, so you need to roll a 6+ regardless if its short or long range to hit them. The Eldar are however, in a building that makes it more difficult to hit (-2), which means you'd need to roll a 8+ to hit (that means rolling a 6 followed by a 5 for each shot). If that manages to happen, then the Edlar would make a save at -1, which put their save at 5+. Imagine if there were 4 Avenging Warriors in that building. . . the odds would be in their favor. In this case, sometimes its easier to just shoot up the building and hope it collapses, but thats another story.

But lets say the Land Raider unloads on the Warriors, miss some, hit some, and that unit manages to save, return fire and nail the Land Raider with a critical hit. Its events like these that went on in every game that I played in this system and it was awesome because I could imagine every event. I've seen beaten down detachments do some amazing last stands or even drive back an opponent because those opportunities to do something were there.

I know that level of detail isnt for everyone, and people like to say they like to focus on the tactics and not the details, but to me there are tactics in every level. It AT/SM1 is just more micro than macro. And it was epic in its infancy so it doesnt do everything perfect, especially morale, but nevertheless for small games played on smaller gaming tables it is hands down an amazing system. But for those that have to have big games on big boards, then its def not your system.

The memories. . .


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Hobart, Australia
I really enjoyed quite a few things about sm1 as well. The orders phase was one of them; surveying the battlefield issuing orders to your formations for the upcoming turn was such a great cat-and-mouse mechanic. It made you feel like an army supreme commander, trying to anticipate the enemies orders. Great fun! I think if you applied the alternating activation mechanic to it, it would play even better. If you applied some more streamlined hit allocation rules it might play a little quicker too. From memory hits were allocated to individual units rather than formations, which slowed things right down. I might have to find the old rulebook and have a peruse.

_________________
.'.
http://ragged-they-kill.blogspot.com.au/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:20 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36400
Location: Ohio - USA
AT/SM1 had a lot of great things going for it. We still use many of those currently. SM2/TL was certainly no where near as good a war game as AT/SM1 in so many areas ... SM2/TL was the "kids" version of Epic. Even if it was the best seller of Epic. :(

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:15 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:44 am
Posts: 123
I wish I had been around miniature gaming when AT/SM1 were around! The 1st edition sounds like an interesting game and it's just so hard to find people interested in playing such oldies. With a few tweaks, it seems like it could be a pretty excellent game! Perhaps this is what Games Workshop has in mind for the proposed new Adeptus Titanicus?

On the point of scale, though, I can see why people like to avoid those small, nitty-gritty (well, almost nitty-gritty :P) details: it seems that if you want to play a game where you roll for the kind of damage a Land Raider can suffer, you would play at a different scale that's better suited to the level of detail. There is beauty in well-designed games at any scale, I find, and sometimes it's nice to play a game that really emphasises the higher-scale stuff without getting bogged down in whether the low-scale stuff is correct, reasonable, or playable.

Of course, the lack of a particularly solid WH40K at the moment makes that easier said than done. I've also not seen a game at a scale between 40K and Epic where the tanks are treated in the level of detail AT1/SM seems to have had—though that could also be due to my inexperience.

Anyways, some food for thought!

Thinking Stone


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:45 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:12 pm
Posts: 102
Location: Massachusetts, USA
You definitely want narrative, and what that should be should (IMO) be dependent on what the game is trying to present. What happens to a tank might be important at one level, what happens to a squadron or company or battalion at another.

The best thing that happened to my gaming recently was Chain of Command. It is a World War 2 game by Too Fat Lardies, but my son and I play it for 15mm Quar. It gets rid of so much of the "line 'em up on either side and start rolling dice". First you have a patrol phase, where you find out who has control of what areas of the board. You set up jump-off points, which represent places your troops probably are, and from where they will appear during the game. And command is made more interesting because you roll (typically 5) command dice, and they give you various things you can do. It provides all kinds of narrative, and I'd like to add some of that to other games. (Not all--I don't think jump-off points would work for Epic.)

I think Epic 40K presents narrative as sweeping movements across landscapes. That's why I want big but quick games on terrain laid out with Geo-Hex. And I need more Titans!

andy


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 8560
Location: Manalapan, FL
^sounds interesting^

Back to the OP, yes SM1 had some very interesting concepts in there, some of which we saw mined for concepts in other games and later editions of what became Epic. For example the Point Defence concept clearly influenced JJ in creating the FF (small arms) mechanic of EA. To be very fair, a fan made clean up could be very easily done.

Thinking Stone: Much of that detail was well represented in 40k Rogue Trader which was less a wargame but more of a narrative framework for a hybrid RPG/Skirmish Wargame to be created with the discussion between the players and the GM. The presence of an APC or Dreadnought was a really big thing in that game and it really captured the small unit battle well (if you added in most of the WD rules to 1st edition-like overwatch and alt activation whatnot it became downright tactical). If it was updated to something more reactive like Infinity and the Warpath 2 rules it would really still work. If I had 28mm around still, I'd contemplate playing it with some houserules to clean out some of the overly detailed aspects.

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36400
Location: Ohio - USA
BTW/FYI - There are 6mm Quar too out. And would work with Epic. Just stat them as IG or Squats, even. It's your gaming table & crew. You can make up what ever narrative you want. It's a Big Galaxy, mine includes many other races, factions, etc. than the GW Fluff. Which primarily is mostly taken from LoTRs ... :o

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:42 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:12 pm
Posts: 102
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Oh, I'm pretty familiar with Quar. :)

I have toyed with getting 6mm Quar, but I don't think I'd do it with Epic. I won't do it, but if I did, I'd actually consider boardgame rules.

andy


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:33 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36400
Location: Ohio - USA
I may waaaay down the road ... add 6mm Quar to my Legion-verse ... ;)

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:55 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:44 am
Posts: 123
I'm agreed about narrative moments, too: even if the narrative for someone is as technical as 'I wonder what would happen if 20 guys/guyettes with Land Raiders met 20 guys/guyettes hiding with Predators in a forest?' or 'I wonder how my school would be as a battleground?'

On the topic of AT/SM1/Epic 1E, I've heard that in the end the rules became a bit unmanageable through the large number of documents they were in (as oft happens!). Is there some kind of compilation? Are those bits beyond the original AT book worth having? Even if nobody has the time or interest to revise them and clean them up a bit, it would be nifty to have a set of the rules floating around somewhere (and at least you could make your own modifications).

On Quar: Quar are pretty nifty! Alas for their war-torn home!

@jimmyzimms Indeed, I'm fortunate enough to have mysteriously acquired a copy of the Rogue Trader book: it is quite magnificent, in its way! And very useful for finding out how many finger grenades a Space Marine should have. It has some very interesting ideas—I think we need to start a movement for reinvigorating these games, haha! Are there certain particularly useful WD rules additions for RT? I do very much like that level of detail, though.

I think 2E seems to have done quite well with detail, too (without having really played it); I guess it's very much an updated edition of RT anyway. 4E 40K (and part of 5E) seemed to keep some of it (a duel between a Daemon Prince and a Dreadnought was quite a moment!) but modern 40K doesn't handle it so well.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:31 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

As a side project I've been working on updating SM1/AT1.

Ironing out its shortcomings as well as adding all the units it doesn't have.

I have a question for those on this thread.

The lake of granularity of the single d6 is a great hindrance to the system requiring an additional layer of rules (the AR, armor rating) which doesn't add much to the narrative and adds extra thing to add and still doesn't make units any more distinct.

What is preferable in your view? A 2d6 system or a 1d10 system?

Both solve the lack of granularity problem while preserving the underlying system.

As it stands I am working on it as a 2d6 system, but I wonder if a 1d10 system would be easier and more intuitive.

Thoughts?

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:44 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 8560
Location: Manalapan, FL
D23 ;)
Joking aside I like the simplicity of D10/20's myself but 2D6 wouldn't put me off.

TS: yes lots of content in WD. There's several books put together that brings all that under one place. I perhaps might have a digital copy somehow ;) 2nd edition is pretty close to taking much of that and the alternative vehicle rules and running with it. A wee bit less of the RPG but very enjoyable.

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:19 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:44 am
Posts: 123
As always, Primarch, a Champion of Rules! I quite liked several things from your Heresy game :) I wonder how out of date AT/SM1 armies are? Did they get to Eldar Aspects before 2E Epic?

I have given some thought to the question of die size: obviously, D10s are desirable for mathematical purposes but I keep thinking of how much more practical the humble cube is for transport. 2D6 also has a different probability distribution to 1D10 (and is thus better suited to certain needs). I have some D6 double dice (essentially, a small die inside a large one—and they make double D10s now!), and have wondered if double dice could make rolling several 2D6 and D100 together much more feasible?

@jimmyzimms My S22 Troll attacks your T19 Nurgling! :P

But, uh, if there was, say, a mysterious copy, I certainly wouldn't mind if it, erm, appeared somewhere near to me... it would be purely by chance, of course!

Ah, vehicle rules! Always the toughest part of 40K (besides the turn alternation and immunity to gunfire in knife fights) to design, it seems! I think I need to play with the 2E vehicle rules properly to really understand them but I have been a fan of using toughness and armour saves for all models (and vehicle critical damage can even be part of their armour save, kind of like how 3E-5E functionally worked with the vehicle damage chart). Critical damage, in general, seems a tricky thing to design elegantly (as my thought experiments with EA titan rules have shown!).

Close combat in 2E is quite good at replicating actual fighting (sword-fighting friends are handy!), even though it's not so practical for large numbers of models. The general rules engine seems pretty robust, though, and very well-suited to the game size (unlike 7E 40K...). I suppose one could always add in some RPG elements on their own, too (which I guess was always the idea).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:31 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Thinking Stone wrote:
As always, Primarch, a Champion of Rules! I quite liked several things from your Heresy game :) I wonder how out of date AT/SM1 armies are? Did they get to Eldar Aspects before 2E Epic?

I have given some thought to the question of die size: obviously, D10s are desirable for mathematical purposes but I keep thinking of how much more practical the humble cube is for transport. 2D6 also has a different probability distribution to 1D10 (and is thus better suited to certain needs). I have some D6 double dice (essentially, a small die inside a large one—and they make double D10s now!), and have wondered if double dice could make rolling several 2D6 and D100 together much more feasible?

@jimmyzimms My S22 Troll attacks your T19 Nurgling! :P

But, uh, if there was, say, a mysterious copy, I certainly wouldn't mind if it, erm, appeared somewhere near to me... it would be purely by chance, of course!

Ah, vehicle rules! Always the toughest part of 40K (besides the turn alternation and immunity to gunfire in knife fights) to design, it seems! I think I need to play with the 2E vehicle rules properly to really understand them but I have been a fan of using toughness and armour saves for all models (and vehicle critical damage can even be part of their armour save, kind of like how 3E-5E functionally worked with the vehicle damage chart). Critical damage, in general, seems a tricky thing to design elegantly (as my thought experiments with EA titan rules have shown!).

Close combat in 2E is quite good at replicating actual fighting (sword-fighting friends are handy!), even though it's not so practical for large numbers of models. The general rules engine seems pretty robust, though, and very well-suited to the game size (unlike 7E 40K...). I suppose one could always add in some RPG elements on their own, too (which I guess was always the idea).


Hi!

The army unit rules are very outdated I'm afraid. Eldar don't even have aspect warriors (only the swooping hawks). Therefore one of the biggest tasks is to update them all with all the units missing.

The rules from the WD's already showed that close combat was progressing to the 2nd edition style. However I didn't like the fact they removed saving throws from losing close combat. It devalued certain units (space marines) and thus opened the door to lots of rules to remedy that.

The vehicle rules for fire resolution can be streamlined by using 2d6 (or 1d10), since the wider probability scale eliminates all those modifiers and extra rules that bogged down the game.

More importantly those rules made titans TOUGH! No other rule set has done them justice since.

Now that time is freeing up its time to revisit that project. :)

On a side note I am also updating Heresy to more modern streamlined mechanics as well. ;)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forming the narrative in combat in AT/SM1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:44 am
Posts: 123
Interesting that Eldar have Swooping Hawks: I presume they were mainly an Eldar Pirate-type army, with some rudimentary Craftworlders? The Aspects do tend to be challenging for Epic, since so many are about short-range 'assassination'-type objectives!

I agree about the lack of armour saves: as Irisado once said, it does make close combat deadly. But it also breaks one of the main game rules and causes problems because of it. Even a negative to saves would gradate the penalty more evenly. Though I suppose you can design a system around the idea, where the counter to high armour is assault. WH40K does this with the AP system on weapons ignoring saves entirely or not at all, and then building the armies into three effective armour classes.

I will be interested to see your ideas about vehicle fire resolution!

Reading about the toughness of titans in those days was quite inspiring and I think that's a major plus to the theme of titan + support warfare. I think it's actually quite a logical progression, much as how tanks are relatively invulnerable today. I think they should feel like BFG ships with infantry and armour floating around them. Though it is tricky to make titans tough and interesting whilst still elegant enough to be usable!

I'm definitely excited to see your new tinkerings! With luck, I may be able to get a chance to try them myself (with other people even! :O)

Now, to the real reason I replied :P I was thinking of the D6 versus D10 question and I remembered the BFG/E40K solution for the limited gradations in value: firepower charts. The large number of dice involved helps with the averages and provides more room when limited to the D6.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

cron

Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net